ModeratorJeffB> Ok I guess its time to get started...
ModeratorJeffB> Good evening everyone
ModeratorJeffB> tonight our special guest is Gerry Salmon
ModeratorJeffB> and our topic is kingsnakes of the mexicana complex
ModeratorJeffB> which is a complex subject
ModeratorJeffB> so... everyones read the rules...
ModeratorJeffB> lets get started...
[gex] what month do you start collecting
[Gerry] I have Heard of them as early as April
[Gerry] specimens are recorded that early in the year
[Gerry] I start the last week in May
[AlTerna] ger, where can I get some nice red mex mex without the light
- centers
[Gerry] There out there - I can get you some contacts later - I have them
- too.
[gex] gerry what do you think about people breeding these "mut" snakes
[Gerry] I don't care for it and think its a bad idea
[Bluemoon] Ger.... do you think that there is a contact zone between
- mexicana and alterna in mexico?
[JeffB] Denny Millers paper and many other documents reference gray iris color as a distinguishing
factor between alterna and the rest of the mexicana complex, and yet there are known examples
of locality Texas alterna w/brown Irsis... can this really be used to distinguish between species?
[Gerry] He said that tho
[Gerry] it was of minor circumstance in his paper as I recall
[Bluemoon] darker iris colors occur more frequently in populations inhabiting volcanic type rock
[Gerry] come to think of it your right
[Bluemoon] and it's rare, but several examples do exist
[Bluemoon] altera from those localities have very slight adaptational variances in my opinion.....
[Bluemoon] such as the darker ventral surface
[Gerry] Usually the eye color is not far off the background color of the animal
[Gerry] The Western (esp Davis) animals have a dark venter
[Gerry] Who knows if its an indication of anything important
[Gerry] Just is
jeffa> The reason the color of the vent & eyes as well as the pattern
varries so greatly is becuase of the realitive age of the species wich would
add to the missbelief that they are not mexicana most species evolve in 30
million yrs. alterna are only 15 million yrs. this helps explain such variance
between localities as well as the difference between mexicana
[Gerry] I'll have to ponder that last one
jeffa> ponder away its fact they just turned 15
[TomCnKY] Have you joined the NRAAC yet.
[Gerry] I have
[TomCnKY] kudos...
ModeratorJeffB> Yes Gerry HAS joined
[AlTerna] ger, any opinions on the "jalpon" mex mex?
and I heard that Tom Crutchfield is in custody in
- Belize.
[Gerry] Don't know about Tom only rumours - don't know him well anyway
[Gerry] Jalpan mex mex are not being bred true and are as sure designer
[Gerry] Pretty snakes and can be bred somewhat reliably
[AlTerna] but, did the original milksnake looking jalpons come from the wild?
[Gerry] Yes I heard that they did but were actually eastern ruthveni that got bred into mex mex
[Gerry] 'because of their close locality link
[AlTerna] k, even with a ridge in the way?
[Bluemoon] some of those snakes may have been from the wild (Jalpan)....... BUT the information was never
- published, it's all "hearsay" ......so who really knows for sure?
[Bluemoon] they definately were from the wild....
[Gerry] Yeah thats the point they should be separate
[Bluemoon] but what were they bred too
[Bluemoon] and were they bred true?
[Bluemoon] definately not
[Gerry] Heard it was the mex mex progeny already in collections
[Gerry] sometimes too much red is a problem
[Bluemoon] so we call them Jalpon "mexicana's"
[Gerry] I have love it if the Jalpans were bred straight but I believe
there was not the oppurtunity to do so
[Gerry] instead of loosing the genes they were expressed
[herpmystr] my belief is that a jalpan is a milksnake phase mex mex
[Gerry] Could be and we'd know that if they were bred true
[Bluemoon] ever collect normal looking mex mex in Jalpon??
[Bluemoon] didnt think so....
[Gerry] If more could be collected and bred it could be documented
[ModeratorJeffB] I think we can all agree that lampropleltis in mexico
need further work
[Gerry] Jalpan is the Jalpan Valley in Northern Queretaro for those of
jeffa> has someone concidered the jalpan form to be a left over
intergrade
- from an old overlapping range
[AlTerna] Barker claims to have some of the original Jalpan strain
[Pyro] I dont know, ask gerry
[ModeratorJeffB] yes he does and Ive seen it
[Bluemoon] Possible Jeffa.......that's a possible ruthveni mex mex
contact zone..
[Bluemoon] who reall knows exactly that far down in mexico
[Pyro] yes, I've seen pictures from barker
[Pyro] he has some very close to looking like ruthveni
[Pyro] Is there, or are there plans for any genetics investigations of
the mexicana
[Gerry] Actually I know of none at this point but we are making requests
for same at this time
[Gerry] Genetic and DNA analysis
[Pyro] becuase i'm am doing genetic work on pyros
[Gerry] DNA
[Pyro] microsatalellite loci frequency
[Gerry] If you have the capability
[Bluemoon] what bothers me is southern mexico
[Gerry] perhaps a MS project
[Pyro] I heard your going on a trip to mexico
[Gerry] We were asked to attend and help a lepidus project in Nuevo Leon and Coahuila, Mexico for UANL and will work on the mexplex stuff
[Gerry] while we are there
[Pyro] yea
[snakeyes] gerry what's the relationship,if any of ruthveni to mex mex?
[Gerry] Well they seem to be one of the closer relationships at least as close as alterna to thayeri, its
- there
[Gerry] but there are differences
[Gerry] and those differences are not wide enough
[Bluemoon] if there is ruthveni in Oaxaca
[Bluemoon] who knows what else is out there and where....
[Gerry] Joe we need to make sure that is a ruhveni but I think it is.
[Bluemoon] true
jeffb> what about the relationship to between ruthveni and arcifera
[Gerry] separate completely
