Dec 11, 2001

Bryan Grieg Fry
Toxinology Research in the New Century

matt2 BGF we'll get started in just a second
BGF alrighty then..... this is on the heels of showing up for a dinner party last night... only it turns out that the 15th is sat !!! man I was embarressed
K-roc haha
BGF even though I shave my head.... deep down, I'm still a blond!!
NajaAnjaPass lol
Regg lol
matt2 Ok, folks lets get started: Bgf is our next Guest tonight
Timbo Curly blonde
BGF LOL! I'll pay that.
BGF thanks mate for covering my ass
BGF any Qs or are there only corn snake people still around?
matt2 ok Timbo:
jeffb corn snakes were tuesday
BGF whats today?
TimJ i have a q
jeffb thursday
matt2 hold a sec, timj
TimJ ok ;)
Thomas Thomas

I think the ld-50 of L quinquestriatus should be .01, not .25. At .25 it would take 17 migs to kill at 70kg dudde/ What's up.
BGF Exactly the point of the problem with LD50s. The numbers don't always add up. However, it proveds a rough indicator (esp. with mammal easting species)

Thomw BGF, Have you any comment on the number of Crotalus viridus bites in california that have an increased neurotxic factor in recent years?
BGF I think they are totally cool! Its a question of are the snakes interbreeding (possible) or is it that the venom has always been there but that so many even well worked species still need to be worked using better techniques
BGF for example, I've recently purified PLA2s out of mambas!
BGF that outta get time very excited

Gday Bryan, Tim Jackson here, you still in Singapore mate? I'll be flying in the night of the 27th, hope we can still meet up and go herpin
TimJ i'm there for 3 months btw
BGF I'll be here in Singabore... er Singapore... so will about eight Boigas, 12 boomslangs and assorted other nasties
TimJ nice
TimJ i'll give you an email when i arrive
matt2 Tokaykeeper:
BGF that should have read eighty boigas

when can we see you on TV next?
BGF you can see me getting tagged by a western diamondback soon on National geo sometime soon,
BGF then an hour long special of me doing difficult cave scuba diving for sea kraits in an hour long special sometime mid year

matt2 my turn: how bad were the effects of the wdb bite
jeffb BGF its SUPPOSED to be the other way around
BGF negligable.... my pride on the other hand was screwed next

Is there a large demand for toxicologists? Also speaking of getting tagged how many venomous bites have you received?
Androctonus or how is the demand for toxicoligists?
BGF Yes there is a large demand for everything from basic clinical research to drug design and dev...
BGF however funding is usually grim (hence me having to work in flied lice land)
TokayKeeper lol

I've had eighteen bites... the most recent was from a sea snake . Truly horrible
Barry--4 knowing that elaphids have the most toxic venom in the snake world, what snake actually does per bite actually cause most snake bite death in the world and is it toxcity related or lousy medical facilities or both
Androctonus thanks
BGF hmmm... good Q. Its a combination of dangerousness of the bites (venom yeild divided by toxicity)...
BGF combined with medical care and antivenom. All these can conspire...
BGF I'd rather take a shot from a coastal taipan in brissy than a puff adder anywhere in Africa

Buzztail1 Hey Bryan, The Boss says Hi. Is your research aimed at producing antivenin for things such as the Cone Shell or are you more oriented towards producing medicines?
BGF HI!!!!
BGF I'm geared towards anything that gets me out of the lab and into the field.
Buzztail1 LOL
BGF Lately I've been doing a lot of computer work, completely reclassifying the toxin phlogenetic relationhships
BGF Tim is going to love what I've done with the three finger toxins.
Timbo Yes

Ok next year im going to college for probably either Toxicology or Molecular Biology besides Dr. Findley Russells book Snake Venom Poisoning (which im getting this month) what are some other must have books on the subject?
ChipC which will help me out in college
BGF Alan Harvey's Snake Toxins
BGF and then mine whenever I finish it!!
ChipC thanks

For those of us not up on the molecular biology lingo, what's a PLA2? PLA2 Barada Nikto?
BGF phospholipase class A2. They are a common snake venom toxin with a myriad of activities.
BGF mambas as susposed to lack them.... so are death adders but I've pulled out heaps from both.
BGF next

gidch did you see the show on the family that had the king cobra and if so do those blocks of wood work in getting better
crocdoc oops, missed
matt2 oops, go ahead, crocdoc, hold a sec, gidch
crocdoc Bryan, I noticed on your site that subcutaneous injection most closely resembled a bite
crocdoc are crotalid fangs not long enough to go intramuscular
BGF Thats stated in there that only big vipers would be capable of normally delivering it...
BGF however even then its usually angled rather than straight in....
crocdoc would that explain why viperids rated higher on the intramuscular tests?
crocdoc ie are they better adapted for performing better with deeper bites
BGF That said, I've been doing some interesting stuff with the king cobras and their ability to compress tissue due to their incredible bite power
BGF ditto with mulgas
crocdoc thanks
BGF as for rating better in LD50s tests, its all relative to which venoms have actually been tested...
crocdoc so the others may have done better in those tests had they been tested..
BGF however the viper venoms increase proportional toxicity in IV tests more than an elapid venom (usually.. prothrombin activating species like most of the Aus elapids are incredible bby IV)
BGF quick Q is crocdoc Adam Britton> If so, send me an email mate!
BGF As for your Q, no I didn't see that program... ironically I don't watch television (except Buffy of course)
crocdoc Adam and I had this chat once. He was still in short pants when I got the name crocdoc

they had a pet king to promote these wood healing blocjks
BGF hmmmmm... and what was susposed to be accomplished
JaymzO How potent is Viper venom? and is it extremely serious if you get accidentally hit?
Herper556 What is the best reptile college
JaymzO sorry herper
JaymzO I did
BGF define viper venom? Thats a pretty big range. As for the best rep college... Neurotic State! Or james cook Uni, Queensland
JaymzO as in Tree vipers
BGF Aaahh... not very but enough to cause you to lose a finger! next
JaymzO omg
Herper556 Thank you
BGF de nada
Herper556 What is the best reptile college, and taxnomny
BGF spanish for 'no worries'
BGF I would recommend James Cook Uni for generalised herps... for taxonomy, whereever Wolfgang is teaching now-a-days!

Jeffle- have u done the "how many times bitten" question yet?
NajaAnjaPass yup
BGF yes, it was eighteen. The last one was a sea snake.
BGF next
matt2 K-roc

okay, then where are the most toxic P. textilis found these days?
Herper556 Thanks
K-roc pass
BGF all over Aus. The Qld form however is larger (up to two meters), has a larger venom yield and seems to proportionally contain more prothrombin activator
BGF I however get to keep babbling! ;-p
Jeffle- so do I follow up?

What method of identification do you most often use to "seperate" components of venom? (GC/MS? Gas Chromatography + Mass Spectroscopy)) Is the seperation technique easy or difficult for yielding accurate results? (i.e. Are accurate component results obtained?)
BGF reversed phase high performance liquid chromatography....
Mattmorelia Ahhh!
Mattmorelia Makes sense
BGF analytical technique of choice is liquid chromatography mass spectrometry...
Jeffle- no worries
BGF I'm now doing heaps of cD
BGF cDNA library work
Mattmorelia How do you "inject" it? Form?
BGF I dissove into 0.1% TFA/H20 and let it rip
Mattmorelia Easy enough. Thanks
BGF easy enough... famous last words... until you hit co-eluting isoforms!!!
BGF next

What bite was the most painful, and which one has been the most disfiguring?
NajaAnja oops
NajaAnja wrong turn

MsTT Why do you think it is that some snakes can give a lot of venom but don't, and others are generous yielders even though they have less venom? Do you think they get wise to the fact that they are on a venom line and get stubborn? LOL Any of the spp. you're working with seem smarter than others, enough of a learning curve to alter their behavior in response to a situation presented in captivity, eg venom extraction?
BGF Other than to make my life difficult.... I don't know (more)
BGF fx.... I was filming last week and none of the three big kings would give ANY venom (more)
BGF it was really frustrating! Oh well. (more)
BGF as for the second part of the Q, the Kings are by far the smartest. There is definately something going on behind those eyes! next

BGF As for the bite Q, the most immediately painful was the Butler's snake (really stung)... more
MsTT That answered it, thank you.
BGF the hardest to get over was the sea snake, for weeks every muscle hurt (more)
TimJ Pseudechis butleri?
TimJ oops
BGF even walking up stairs was agony! And yes that was P. butleri on the early Q
BGF The sea snake was Acalyptophis peronii (horned sea snake) next

Rache Hello, and thx for answerting our questions :-} What sort of jobs are there in this sort of research and what sort of education is required?Im real interested in herps and esspecially in medicine, health, venom, and genetics. It just theres soooo many choices and im all confused. thx
BGF the best thing to do is get a Ph.D. and try to wrangle a staff position ANYWHERE. Easier said than done.
ratrace Off the wall question....When your in the states do you ever get a chance to speak at any of the reptile societies??? And if so, how can we make an appointment with you to speak to our local societies???
Rache thx gtg bye
BGF Hmmm... not sure when I'll be in the states next. I'll try for the next Daytona show but no promises
BGF next

Shae12 Whats your web pages name?
BGF ;-)
Shae12 thanks
SnakesAndStuff Is there very much intraspecific venom variation in north american crotalids? If so, to what degree is there population variation of venoms?
BGF There is intraspecific venom variation in just about every species. The timber/canebrake complex seems to be rather variable as is the mojave green. next

templeviper bgf out of all the venomous snakes you have worked with, which release the most vemom for its size. also how is vemom measured or broke down to tell how potent it is on mice
BGF hmmm...for the size Q. I'd say that of the elapids the death adders really can pack it away.. mroe
BGF for big elapids, the mulga snake (Pseudechis australis) has the highest venom yield of any snake worldwide.
BGF the venom is measured by how much many mice die over a 24 hour period after being injected by a certain does. next
templeviper thanx

Bryan, this is a non-herp question... Do you know what the deal is with not being able to produce antivenin for the blue-spotted octopus? I had read somewhere that it doesn't cause anitbody production, and I thought that to be odd...
BGF The blue ringed octopus contains a bacterial produced toxin... good old fashioned tetrodotoxin. more
BGF its a tiny organic molecule. Same stuff as in the puff adders used in zombie rituals. next
BGF puffer fish!!
BGF big diff!
Thomw Oh, our eastern Red spotted newts make that toxin also..Thanks

Timbo Did you say the dendroaspis complex now has beta PLA2's? This means it has all 4 neuro families, except angusticeps. 2 betas(PLA,K-blockers), cleft and nic. alphas? Holy power batman. Find some nic alphas with angusticeps, then I'll be impressed. Enzymes in Dendro, way too cool. One more, what's the role of muscarinic toxins in snakebite? Timmy
BGF Actually..... its got more than that!!! I've identified three entirely new families (on top of the PLA2s) more
BGF the paper is going to knock your lace underwear off! more
BGF for muscarinics, it would be interfer with cardiac and smooth muscle contraction.
BGF Timbo followup?
Timbo O my god, O my god. Luv y
matt2 go ahead, timbo
BGF the PLA2s were out of Jameson's
BGF also just found myotoxic PLA2s in death adders
BGF and neurotoxins in Boigas
Timbo O lord, we must talk
BGF and phospholipases in Boigas

TimJ Did you end up finding many (any) wild Phiophagus in Singapore? I have heard rumours of them being common on a military base and that they occasionally show up in the mandai area, any truth to this? followup
matt2 were you attempting to answer his timj's q, BGF
BGF thanks guys for the patience ;-) I appreciate it.
BGF adios amoebas!!
Thomw Thanks Bryan
crocdoc adios
crocdoc thanks
TimJ thanks bryan, seeya soon
Barry--4 thanks
Buzztail1 Thanks Bryan, The Boss says we'll be at Daytona for sure now.
BGF Take care everyone and Timbo I
matt2 on behalf of, jeffb and myself, thanks so much Bryan
BGF I'll send you a copy of the paper in Jan sometime.
BGF bye

Hey Brian, I've had the good fortune of lucking into a pair of Naja oxiana; Being that there are probably less than 20 of these specimens in the states currently and limited literature available, have you ever worked with their venom or have any knowledge of its properties, maybe in comparison to the nearby naja naja or kaouthia in order for me to secure an appropriate antivenom?
Androctonus later
ChipC how do we find your papers Bryan
BGF any other Qs send them to me at I can send reprints of papers by email too.
matt2 for those of you who wish to continue chatting you are welcome in #kingsnake chat room
Thomw Thanks again Bryan, Happy Holidays
ratrace for more reptile chat type /join #kingsnake
BGF gotta go to swim training now. lots of butterfly ahead of me today.
TimJ lol
TimJ a brief respite from the sticky heat eh
Buzztail1 LOL
Timbo I want my blue shirt back
ratrace dang it
ratrace for more reptile chat type /join #kingsnake
crocdoc forgot what was on your clipboard
BGF Everyone, Tim wants his blue skirt back.... but its mine now (its my colour)
templeviper take care bryan and thanx
matt2 Folks; this concludes tonight's Guestchat, join us tomorrow night at 6pm, c.s.t here
MsTT Besides, Timbo, you wouldn't want it back now since Bryan dyed it pink. LOL
BGF thats his colour
crocdoc well, afternoon/evening all
matt2 we're chatting now in #kingsnake if ya wish to join us
muha k.. I will.. thanks :)
matt2 goodnight all