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kingsnake.com
Patrick Nabors
Dart frogs
March 1, 2005

PHFaust: Patrick is here to talk on Dart Frogs, Im not sure if he can help with other frog species, but it is possible. And now PHFlame, intro please

PHFlame: Good evening, everyone, and thank you for joining us tonight!

On behalf of Jeff Barringer and all of us at kingsnake.com, I'm very pleased to welcome Patrick Nabors to our Seventh Annual Chat Week.

Patrick has been keeping and breeding reptiles and amphibians since 1990. In the mid-nineties the focus of his business, Saurian Enterprises, began to shift from lizards to dart frogs. He currently maintains a large collection of dart frogs, and breeds many different species of frogs and lizards.

Thank you so much for joining us, Patrick, and welcome!

krn: wento on on sunday and i didnt get a chance to talk to that guy do you think ill ge tot talk tonite ?\

Patrick_nr: Thanks

PHFlame: Thank you for coming to chat this evening. If you have a question for Patrick, please type “?” in the room and you will be added to the queue. You WILL be called on in the order of ? received. Please do not type openly in the chat room. Thanks again for coming.

CJinNH: ?

PHFaust: First Up Morila

Geckoholic: ?

krn: ?

PHFaust: Next up Mali

jeffb: ?

Maliyum: what specific dart frogs can be housed together, any specific plants? And what lizards have you kept in the past?

Patrick_nr: You can keep a lot of dart frogs together, such as auratus, galactontotus, phyllobates species. In particular tincs and azureus dont do well together in groups of three or more in medium to small size tanks.

Laws-Yes: LOL!

geckguy: ?

Patrick_nr: Since the questioner left the room, I wont finish! GA

PHFaust: Nope patrick Maliyum is still here...

Maliyum: here i am!

PHFaust: go ahead and finish

krn: do you have any bearded dragons .. and is keeping dart frogs hard and rewarding ?? do you like tegus or have you ever had a tegu

Patrick_nr: Ok, well that pretty well covered it. I dont know that I can converse that fluently about plants in this forum, and the list of lizards I have kept is pretty long....many geckos, some monitors, a few chameleons...GA

WillinFLa: Hey Patrick, long time, figured Id pop in and say hi

jeffb: And please note - if yoour connection gets dumped and you have asked a questiuon we alwayd do a chat transcript published on our site the nnext day

Maliyum: thanks!

PHFaust: Allrighty then, Sengo

SengokuJidai_nr: Patrick, how many Dart Frogs should be housed together for a community? So that they aren't over crowded and fight...And how many of each sex would be proper?

Patrick_nr: Hi Will, it has been a long time....look forward to seeing that website when its done! GA

Patrick_nr: This is hard to say. Generally people throw out between five and ten gallons per frog, but a lot of variable enter in. I really cant give a specific answer to such ageneral question. Females tend to fight the most. GA

SengokuJidai_nr: thanks

PHLdyPayne: no open chatting in the room, we have a special guest speaiker. If you have any questions, please type a ? and wait to be called. The topic is dart frogs

PHFaust: Alrighty, Catfur your turn

EnchantedForest: ?

Catfur: What thumbs other than castis, fants, imis and retics are you working with, and what do you expect to start coming available in the next year or two.

LeoGeoGuy: ?

palex134: ?

Laws-Yes: !

Patrick_nr: Well, I dont have a whole lot other than these. I am hoping to offer red ventrimaculatus soon, I am already selling a few amazonicus to returning customers, and hopefuly in the next year I will be offering some yellow fantasticus. I also have a couple of pumilio morphs which are occasionally available. GA

PHLiz: ?

Crocman2020: ?

PHFaust: CJ

CJinNH: At a recent reptile show, dart frogs caught my wife's eye, and well I know how this works, I need to find out how hard they are to maintain and where the best info on them can be found. We are not new to herps but have no experience with amphibians.

Reggie_nr: i had a question ? :(

Patrick_nr: Well, dart frogs are pretty easy to keep, if you do so correctly. Its important to get things set up right, and get started right. At the same time as I can say they are easy to keep, they are also easy to kill. Please check out my site, www.saurian.net I have a lot of info just for people like you that are just getting started! GA

PHFaust: Geckoholic

Geckoholic: Hello Patrick, I was wondering if you rely on most for pumilio egg laying sites? Bromeliads, film containers, "tree cups" Based on your website I got the impression you like to keep things as natural as possible

SengokuJidai_nr: !

LonsumGeorge_nr: ?

rockybalboa_nr: ?

Patrick_nr: Pumilio are pretty persistent, you dont really have to work hard to give them a lay spot. I dont keep any thing special in their tanks for them to lay on, but they lay a lot on dead leaves on the bottom of the tank, and primarily I guess on bromeliad leaves.GA

PHFaust: Krn your turn

krn: hey do you keep beardies are dart frogs rewarding to keep and are they easy to breeed and lasstly do you have ot like tegus what was your first herp

Patrick_nr: no, I no longer keep beardies. I kept and bred beardies back in teh mid nineties. My first herps kept in my childhood...I remember a big speckled kingsnake, and a melanistic southern hognose in particular.GA

amazinglyricist: ?

LonsumGeorge_nr: ?

krn: thanks pat

krn: i apreciate it

Patrick_nr: No problem!

Longshanks_nr: ?

PHFaust: GRRR Jeff B your turn

jeffb: Patrick are many frogs till being imported?

jeffb: still

palex134: ?

Patrick_nr: Right now there are only two species of dart frogs being regularly imported, both from Panama...they are d. auratus and d. pumilio. Over the past few years it has become harder and harder to import frogs, due to Us fish and wildlife among other reasons. GA

PHFaust: Geckoguy your turn

PHFlame: ?

LeoGeoGuy: ?

mwilson_nr: ?

PHFaust: Gecko guy?

jake_nr: ?

PHFaust: OK Enchanted your turn

EnchantedForest: hi patrick!

Patrick_nr: Hi!

EnchantedForest: I was just wondering about the different feeder insects you use

EnchantedForest: as well as a pumilio question

Patrick_nr: Only two here, crickets, and fruit fliesGA

EnchantedForest: ok, about your baby pumilio

Patrick_nr: Ok?

EnchantedForest: do you pull them when you find them, or leave them in with the parents for a little while?

EnchantedForest: (there has been talk that froglets left with the parents do better>)

Patrick_nr: No, I pull them!

BigR420: "?"

EnchantedForest: ok, thanks :) hope you'll be at IAD

PHFaust: Longshanks your turn

Longshanks_nr: Have you ever been into anything other than frogs, "snakes" ? I love Kingsnakes so I was wondering if you have had any.

Patrick_nr: Yes, I have done every thing from snakes to lizards. Mostly lizards. I got out of snakes a few years GA

PHFaust: Absolute Rae your turn

AbsoluteRae: Thanks so much for coming tonight. How can you tell a healthy frog (as in when buying from a breeder)? What sort of health problems should you watch out for in captivity?

Longshanks_nr: thanks

thekidgecko: ?

JonnyAlbino: ?

Patrick_nr: Hi Rae, if you are buying a frog that you can look at, at a show or something, then just look for good weight and size. If buying over the internet, you have to go on reputation I guess. One key is to get well started frogs. Many times frogs are sold as three to six week old froglets and these have a much higher mortality rate than three month old or so frogs.....GA

PHFaust: LeoGeo your turn

palex134: ?

LeoGeoGuy: are poison dart frogs poisoness in captivity?

LeoGeoGuy: if they arent, why not?

Patrick_nr: No, dart frogs make their poison from things in their diet in the wild. So far no one has figured out how to make poison dart frogs poisonous in captivity. GA

PHFaust: Palex your turn

palex134: hey pat, would you considier D. auratus a good starter frog? Do you have good sucsess breeding them and selling them? Would they be a good frog to begin with and start a breeding project. I am looking for a frog that will sell. Are they easy to house and breed the D. auratus?

savannah_king: ?

MarkPulawski: ?

Patrick_nr: Absolutely, auratus are perhaps the best starter frog. They are usually easily sold to pet stores and other beginners at shows. Of course they dont sell for much, this is one reason they are good beginner frogs,makes them easy to sell. Great beginner frog. GA

PHFaust: laws

palex134: thanks pat

palex134: ?

Laws-Yes: what is the name for the fused vertabrea that occurs in all frogs that make them visually identifable and unmistakeble from other animals?

Patrick_nr: Just a suggestion, when you post your ? then write your question and have it ready for submission when you are called on!

BigR420: ?

Patrick_nr: Sorry Laws, but I am not sure. GA

LonsumGeorge_nr: ?

PHFaust: Crocman

Crocman2020: whats your favorite dart frog species and why?

MarkPulawski: Pat do you feel F2 and F3 generation Pumilio are more difficult to breed or less productive than WC.

Laws-Yes: sorry i got the answer patrick its coccyx

LeoGeoGuy: sorry to interupt but to answer law-yes question, it is called the coccyx

Patrick_nr: Crocman, my favorite is d. pumilio. most forms are very bold, active and colorful. Their small size is an odded turn on for me! GA

Crocman2020: thanks

PHFaust: Rocky your turn

rockybalboa_nr: Hi patrick i am canadian,do you know of any good breeders of dart frogs in canada,and what is the best cage setup for them,temps,humidity,plants,etc?Thankyou, its really cool for you to come visit tonight.

Patrick_nr: Laws, I have a coccyx, and its fused as well....its my tailbone right?

palex134: ?

Laws-Yes: yes it is

Patrick_nr: Well rocky, there are a few breeders in Canada, Mark Pepper comes to mind. Check the KS arrow frog forum for more on that....Cage set up shoudl be very humid....too much to go into here, check my site, and read up on themGA

rockybalboa_nr: thankyou

LonsumGeorge_nr: ?

PHFaust: Lonsum finally your turn!

LonsumGeorge_nr: yay ! what is the rarest dart frog known and what is the number ?

Patrick_nr: I have no idea. In captivity, or in the wild? Tehre are many dart frog species which are not in captivity at all. GA

LonsumGeorge_nr: out in the field is what i meant , sorry

Patrick_nr: Well thats not that well documented, I think there are a lot of fairly rare species in the wild. Ones we know that are rare include some central american species like speciocis

rockybalboa_nr: ?

LonsumGeorge_nr: do you number the numbers found ?

Patrick_nr: no idea ga

PHFaust: Amazingly your turn

LonsumGeorge_nr: k thanks

amazinglyricist: What in your opinion is the best beginner dart frog, what was your first dart frog, and how similar do you feel they are to mantellas? Also how big do you think the dart frog hobby will be in 5 years? It's already grown so much in the last few, and do you see it expanding into big chain pet stores where many animals are not properly cared for on a large scale?

JonnyAlbino: ?

PHFaust: Gang, just wanted to let everyone know Queue is closed... we have about 5 or so first time questions, so if you have already asked a question of patrick, I will be skipping you.

Patrick_nr: Well my first dart frog was the tricolor dart frog. Very cool little frogs, great behavior. I am not that familiar with mantellas but they are obviously similar. I dont think the dart frogs will get into the larger pets stores. They are too "perishable" for these stores, in my opiiion. I do see it growing, as you say its grown a lot over teh past few years,a nd will continue to. I think it will stay with breeders, and specialty pet stores though....ga

PHFaust: Mwilson your turn

mwilson_nr: I recieved some of the Kent RO right for my misting system,how much do I add to the reservoir or should I say to what GH works best to keep the misting heads from clogging?

Patrick_nr: Hi Mark, I am not sure. I sat down with the bottle, and figured out how much to add to my reservior, then marked it on a cup, which I keep with the bottle. My reservoir is a 50 gallon drum, and th quantity is about 150ml as I recall. I doubt you will have problems with hardness clogging the nozzles though, they are plastic and I dont think the mineral will precipitate on it....ga

mwilson_nr: ok thanks

PHFaust: Jake your turn

jake_nr: which in your opinion are more fascinating D.tinctorius or D.imitator? Which is the easiest to take care of? Which is more active and bolder?

Patrick_nr: Well the imitators have held my interest longer. Tincs are very cool, but in the long run they are limited to the floor of the tank, for the most part, and they dont do as many cool things as the imitators do. On the other hand they are out and about much more. GA

PHFaust: Big R your turn

Patrick_nr: The tincs are out and about more, I should clarify! GA

jake_nr: thanks

BigR420: Recently my azureus pair laid eggs in the axils of a brom. Many of the eggs have slid down deep into the axil. The eggs are developing, but they have always laid in the hut for me before so I am at a loss as to what to do. Is it best to let them develop, then move them when they erupt from the gel, or attempt to move them now? They were laid about week ago. Thanks!

Patrick_nr: Well, you can leave them, or you can get a plastic spoon and dig them out. I might let them develop till they are almost ready to erupt and then dig them out with the spoon. Eggs are pretty durable, dont sweat it too much. I would definitely not let them hatch in the tank if I could help it! GA

PHFaust: Thekidgecko your turn

thekidgecko: I have always been well........dart frog challenged to say the least. I killed my first two g & b aruatus faster than greased lighting (2 weeks) What do oyu think is the hardiest frog with best range temp and humidity tolerance ( not nessicarily to breed cuz i can coax most anything to breed as long as its healthy lol I've been thinking a luec or tinctorius would be best

thekidgecko: i live in texas so there are some weird extremes were i live

Patrick_nr: If you are going to try again, I woudl go with the leucs or the auratus again, tincs are a bit harder. Were your auratus healthy well started captive breds? GA

thekidgecko: yes

PHFaust: MarkPulawski your turn

MarkPulawski: Sorry ? posted earlier (new to forum) My take on biggest WC Citronella, Terribilis and Siverstonei Pat please comment on F2 &3 Pumilio production

Patrick_nr: And you kept them in the small container like I recommend? A lot of people get big tanks (even a ten gallon is a big tank to a babay dart frog) and then put little frogs right in it. Check out my care sheet on juvenile dart frogs, it has a lot of info on young frogs. GA
pac-man: hi

Patrick_nr: Hi Mark, wild caught pumilio often blow out lots of babies for a year or so, (if you consider fifteen or so babies in a year a lot). Many including myself have found the production from captive bred pumilio to often be less, especialy in teh first year or two. I have been getting consistently good production from teh yellow and red bastis, cb, but many other forms of pumilio seem much more challenging. GA

PHFlame: Patrick, on behalf of all of us at kingsnake.com, thank you so much for being our guest tonight! Please stay with us for our next chat, when we welcome Darrell Senneke of the World Chelonian Trust and Turtle Survival Alliance. Please also join us tomorrow night at 9 PM Eastern, when we'll welcome Jessi Clark-White of AfricanServal.com, discussing "Why Exotic Pets Should Not Be Banned," and at 10 PM Eastern, Bill Love on Herp Photography!