kingsnake.com
Herp Rescue Panel
Bonnie from VA Reptile Rescue
Cindy from Small Scale Reptile Rescue
Jane from Mid Michigan Reptile Rescue and Rehabilitation
March 4, 2005
PHFlame: Good evening and on behalf of Jeff Barringer
and all of us at kingsnake.com, thank you for joining us for our Seventh
Annual Chat Week!
Tonight we are pleased to welcome Jane Billette - Mid Michigan Reptile
Rescue, Bonnie Keller - VA Reptile Rescue and Cindy Steinle - Small
Scale Reptile Reptile Rescue for our rescue panel. They will be discussing
How Herps end up in rescues and what we as hobbyists can do to prevent
it.
Each of the ladies will offer a brief intro of themselves and the
work their rescues have done before we begin.
Thanks Jane, Bonnie and Cindy, and welcome!
Taylor: ?
PHLiz: Thank you for coming to the special guest chat this
evening. If you have a
question, please type ? in the room and you will be added to the queue.
You WILL be called on in the order of ? received. Please do not type
openly in the chat room.
Maliyum: ?
SmallScaleRescue: My Name is Cindy Steinle and I run Small
Scale Reptile Rescue in Wisconsin. My rescue serves the state of WI
and northern IL and works in Partnership with Mid-Michigan Reptile
Rescue. I am a member of the Chicago Herpetological society and they
assist me with crocodilian relocation. I am also a member of WI Dog
and all other species rescue which is a self policing organization
of Breed Rescues and a coalition of Shelters that cover the entire
state of WI. I also am in the employ of a humane society here in WI
as well as sitting on the Board of Specialty Pure Bred Cat Rescue
and Chicagoland Bully Breed Rescue. I have been working in reptile
rescue for 10 years now. Last year SSRR had over 80 animals pass through
our doors.
PHFlame: Taylor, you get to go first
Taylor: how often do you do rescues?
MMRR: My name is Jane and I started doing reptile rescue back
in 1996. I am a board member of the Michigan Society of Herpetologists,
a member of the Chicago Herp Society and the International Iguana
Society.
My daughter and I work as a team to rescue, rehabilitate, socialize,
and place all species of reptiles and some small furry exotics. We
participate in as many educational exhibits as we can fit into our
schedule.
Reptile rescue has become more than just a hobby for us, it's a way
of life.
VAReptileRescue: I’m Bonnie Keller, Founder
of VA Reptile Rescue. I started rescuing in 1997 while living in New
Hampshire. When I moved back home to VA in 1999, I continued rescue.
Since then, my numbers of intakes has gone from 30 or so to 100+.
In addition to running the rescue, I teach high school science full-time.
My husband, Rich, runs his own computer repair business. The two of
us are very busy with the animals, and enjoy doing educational programs
to help ward off potential “future rescuesâ€.
We are expecting our first human child in June. I'm a member of the
local herp society, as well as VHS, and various other organizations.
SmallScaleRescue: I field a call daily... I honestly dont think
a day has passed with out a call. I take animals in depending on space
and also work with area shelters to set up a holding and adoption
program there....\
Taylor: awesome
MMRR: We also field calls and emails daily, sometimes multiple
requests in a day.
SmallScaleRescue: But to be totally honest, there are just
so many adult green iguanas, adult boas and big pythons, crocodillians
and monitros one can handle in a house
SmallScaleRescue: GA
PHFlame: mali, you're next
Maliyum: what is your most rescued animal that comes in? And
what started you in rescuing animals, what age?
VAReptileRescue: Boas and iguanas!!
VAReptileRescue: We get TONS of each...
herp3_nr: ?
VAReptileRescue: We are seeing fewer large pythons than a
few years ago, but still get lots of those, too.
MMRR: Iguanas, boas, and burms...Savs are becoming quite frequent
visitors here also
SmallScaleRescue: My number one animal this past year that
we had room for was Boas. The number one requested animal was green
iguanas
VAReptileRescue: GA
atb: ?
MMRR: GA
SmallScaleRescue: I started rescue at 18 with iguanas only....
I have always been an adopt type of person...
SmallScaleRescue: a friend groomed me to take over her reptile
rescue portion and well it just blew up from there... GA
Midask9: ?
VAReptileRescue: Damien, what are most of your calls? The
same as ours?
neilgolli: ?
damien: iguanas and water turtles more than all other species
combined
damien: we have 80 iguanas and 50 red eared sliders on waiting
lists currently
palex134: ?
PHFlame: atb, are you ready?
SmallScaleRescue: Im sitting at 119 for iguanas here
atb: do you run youre rescue through youre home? how big are
your facilitys?
VAReptileRescue: Yes, mine is in my home. I bought this house
specifically for the large basement.
juuniper77: ?
VAReptileRescue: Of course, I'd love to have a stand-alone
facility some day, but I can't see it happening on a teacher's salary.
VAReptileRescue: ga
MMRR: MMRR works out of our residence. We also have a large
basement converted for herps with walk-in enclosures. GA
SmallScaleRescue: Rescues are almost always run through homes...
I have a 900 square foot house here. My reptile room is 20 x 40 feet.
We have space heaters and humidifiers. The room is set up on one side
for high humidity and the other for desert humidity... Of course everyone
who knows me has been told to watch out for that (iguana, gator, tort,
snake) in the bathroom at one point in time or another
SmallScaleRescue: GA
juuniper77: how do you all handle vet care and costs? (besides
MMRR, since i am her vet lol)
PHFlame: Midas, you're up
VAReptileRescue: :::::beaming Juuniper77 to VA::::::
Midask9: just wondering if you all had to pick one pet peeve,
what would it be? inexperienced owners? neglected herps? ga
VAReptileRescue: LACK OF EDUCATION BEFORE GETTING THE ANIMAL!!!
VAReptileRescue: (gee, was I shouting???) hehehehehe
VAherper_nr: ?
Midask9: LOL
damien: ARR has a network of vets that perform services at
no cost, including an exotic specialist
MMRR: I would have to agree...the lack of research and committment
before acquiring an exotic pet is our biggest problem GA
SmallScaleRescue: Honjestly, Its the people who cant really
understand that we are NOT government funded... Here I have a HUGE
Problem with people expecting INSTANT removal of their previously
beloved pet. Since they have paid my operating costs (ummm no my full
time job does) I should come out at 3 am....
Lack of experience is no longer a pet peeve because well, it is expected
SmallScaleRescue: I have really come to think the worst of
human kind from doing rescue
SmallScaleRescue: GA
PHFlame: Neil, you're up
VAReptileRescue: Cindy, I agree... I had a phone message yesterday
from someone who wanted to drop off a leopard gecko with a mangled
foot so that I could pay for it to be amputated.
neilgolli: Do you take donations or how do handle food and
vet bills?
SmallScaleRescue: WE LOVE DONATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VAReptileRescue: Yes, please!!! We love donations... that
is how we are supported...
SmallScaleRescue: I have a freezer full of donations...
neilgolli: Please post links for me.
MMRR: Donations are always welcomed!! Most of our costs tho
are funded by my own job. GA
SmallScaleRescue: Without donations, everything else comes
out of our pockets...
VAReptileRescue: Adoption fees and donations are what makes
this possible. We get no funding from the gov't, as Cindy said..
aggietech02: ?
VAReptileRescue: Well, I guess most of my funding does come
from the Gov't, seeing as how I'm a teacher... hehehehe
VAReptileRescue: www.vareptilerescue.org
SmallScaleRescue: And there are a lot of things people dont
realize we can use... Things like grocery store cards (produce anyone)
gas cards (transports) many online stores offer gift cards...
MMRR: Those that do rescue get very accomplished at begging!
LOL
PHWyvern: ?
ig_daddy: ?
SmallScaleRescue: With all the support dog and cat and other
cute animal rescues get from vendors, reptile rescues must gorvel
and kiss feets to get donations
SmallScaleRescue: GA
Lokismommy: ?
PHFlame: Palex, you are next
Ontario-Herper: ?
palex134: what has been your strangest rescue or strangest
species rescued and have you ever had crested geckos rescued?
VAReptileRescue: Strangest... I had a black ratsnake given
to me by a vet that had swallowed 3 easter eggs filled with gravel
that had been placed into a hen house....
palex134: hahaha
MMRR: I think our strangest was a beautiful pair of HUGE Tiger
Retics that had just been purchased by a 19 year old. His parents
wanted them out of the house ASAP!! GA
SmallScaleRescue: My most unusual was either the taiwanese
beauty snake that ate itself or the most unnerving was my death stalker
scorpian animal wise...
VAReptileRescue: The chicken owner brought the snake in, paid
for the surgery, and then I nursed it until it was ready for release..
VAReptileRescue: ga
SmallScaleRescue: We did have an iguana that ate an ENTIRE
ladies stocking... Only to expel about 6 weeks into foster care...
SmallScaleRescue: GA
VAReptileRescue: Damien, how about you??
PHFlame: juuniper, you are next
palex134: ?
damien: a Sulcata tortoise hit by car was pretty strange to
get
juuniper77: how do you handle animals you have to turn away?
(besides getting your friends to foster them;))
SmallScaleRescue: Well my friends are all happy now the reptiles
are on a different floor sooooo no foster help there...
MMRR: Ahh, that's tough. I try to refer them to someone else
or ask if they can hold onto the animal until we have an opening.
Most of the time I don't refuse and just do some creative rearranging.
SmallScaleRescue: I offer to list the animal as a courtesy
listing... It really depends on the reasons for surrender....
VAReptileRescue: I only turn away iguanas, venomous, and lately
I've turned away large aggressive snakes... Iguana owners I provide
some options for (such as I'll coordinate finding it a home while
they keep it), venomous aren't allowed in my county... only turning
away the big nasty ones because I'm 6 mo's pregnant right now, and
simply can't handle them at the moment.
SmallScaleRescue: At this point I do NOT turn down shelters.
Owners have to wait.. I explain things they can do... Ads in paper,
stores, vets...
FrozenGecko: ?
SmallScaleRescue: I offer to handle all the paperwork and applications
so they can ensure they have a good home.
juuniper77: ?
VAReptileRescue: I also refer water turtles to Turtle Homes,
or Mid-Atlantic Turtle and Tort Society.
SmallScaleRescue: HOWEVER I will not take or place animals
that have severe agresssion issues... too much liability... I often
suggest humane euthanasia for those animals...
SmallScaleRescue: We are totally closed to owner surrendered
green iguanas at this point.
VAReptileRescue: I wish I had foster homes available - I don't.
For some reason I've had a very hard time getting foster homes or
volunteers in this area.
MMRR: Belonging to a herp society can be a good resource when
looking for foster homes.
VAReptileRescue: ga
MMRR: GA
SmallScaleRescue: GA
PHFlame: VAherper, it's your turn.
VAherper_nr: have you ever consulted with the major chain
stores on care of their animals? and VAreptile rescue what school
do you teach at? jst asking because im a student in fairfax county
SmallScaleRescue: In fact I have... And I have had WONDERFUL
success with petco here...
golfdiva: ?
VAReptileRescue: VAHerper, I did some consulting (not official)
for PetCo when in New Hampshire. Down here, I've offered some advice
to the local stores, and been met with mixed reaction. I teach in
Chesterfield County.
SmallScaleRescue: When they get requests for a species of animal,
they now call me for my opinion... That is a WONDERFUL step!
MMRR: Chains are hard to deal with because of corporate rules
but some of the larger ones are finally getting a clue.
JuliaDream777: .....
VAherper_nr: thats really good to hear, thanks to all
SmallScaleRescue: Local small stores are harder here than the
petco chain for some reason... But I do enjoy my relationship at this
point with petco
VAReptileRescue: Most of the large chains have their own "consultants"
that come in 2-3x per year... in between, though, there's lots of
turnover of employees, so it doesn't do much good.
SmallScaleRescue: They have actually had people call to adopt
BEFORE purchasing something they have on sale in their stores... it
has been my biggest ball python outlet
SmallScaleRescue: GA
Crazycodykadunk: ???
MMRR: GA
palex134: later all, Ill bb for Anthoney C cause I love my
cresteds thanks all especially to the guest speakers
VAReptileRescue: Some of the local stores here work with me
very well, both in sending me adoptions, and referring turn-ins to
me. They also have asked advice on what to carry.
VAReptileRescue: ga
PHFlame: wyv, you are up!
PHWyvern: Do rescues ever try to make use of local resources,
such as the USDA breeding facilities or laboratories (or even fish
hatcheries) for food supplies like surplus chicks/quail and mice and
rats, etc? Zoos, nature centers and wildlife rehabbers often do things
like that - get surplus animals for free (or low cost) that are safely
uthanized but would otherwise be destroyed. In the case of laboroatories,
it would be the control animals that are not experiemented on.
VAReptileRescue: Wyvern, as much as possible, we do. Some
of those facilities are only available to 501c3 organizations.
VAReptileRescue: I do have a local grocery that supplies me
with all the leftover produce I want.
MMRR: We have used the local colleges and Humane Societies..
most labs already have an existing list of end users. It's hard to
get on those lists.
VAReptileRescue: And I have an expert squirrel hunter here
that will also nab squirrels for use - even supply them to a nature
center in MD when possible... ;-)
SmallScaleRescue: I have gotten rats thru USDA Testings...
However we have actually, as part of the CHS Gator relocation program,
placed large gators into state run fish hatcheries! They prefer to
run things with a cycle of life...
SmallScaleRescue: GA
VAReptileRescue: ga
PHWyvern: gee... our eagle appreciates a certain squirrel hunter
too
MMRR: ga
PHFlame: ig daddy, go ahead with your question
ig_daddy: This question is to all of you. Do you think that
a law requiring pet stores to include basic husbandry information
on ALL animals they sell would help stop some of the dumping of animals?
SmallScaleRescue: Interesting question
VAReptileRescue: No, honestly, I don't..
VAReptileRescue: People refuse to READ anything these days.
stano40: ?
SmallScaleRescue: CA had a law like that pass recently and
honestly I havent heard of a drop of rescue there...
VAReptileRescue: They want to be told verbally, and they want
to believe only what they want to hear.
DrkDragon_nr: ?
SmallScaleRescue: Our society deems everything to be disposable..
Which is truely unfortunate
SmallScaleRescue: GA
MMRR: I don't think so. You can read all you like but not practice
what you are reading. Also, who is going to provide the pet stores
with the proper information?
VAReptileRescue: ga
ig_daddy: I ask that because I was told total BS by the store
I got my Iggi from.
MMRR: ga
PHFlame: lokismom, go ahead with your question
MMRR: that is typical
SmallScaleRescue: And that BS is still out there...
SmallScaleRescue: GA
aggietech02: ??
PHFlame: Ontario herper, you are next
PHFlame: let's skip ontario and go onto palex again
PHFaust: Gang it helps to have your question typed in advance
and wait until your name is called to hit enter
PHFlame: palex, are you ready?
PHFlame: palex, going twice
PHFlame: frozen gecko, you are up
FrozenGecko: Do you ever do post-adoption visits to make sure the
people who adopt are caring for the animals properly? and are any
of you 501(c)3 non-profits?
SmallScaleRescue: Yes I do...
VAReptileRescue: Frozen, I do when possible. However, many
of my adoptions are done long-distance, so I have to rely on follow-up
e-mails.
MMRR: Yes, when possible. It would be nice to have the time
to put together our 501c3 paperwork.
SmallScaleRescue: I have kept in contact with my first adoption
from 9 years ago....
VAReptileRescue: I was in the process of filing for 501c3,
but just pulled my application because of a lot of new stipulations
that the IRS recently introduced.
VAReptileRescue: Wasn't worth my time or money to do it.
SmallScaleRescue: It was a fairly young iguana and is still
going strong...
VAReptileRescue: Cindy, that's great!
SmallScaleRescue: I am NOT 501 as of yet... it just at this
point costs too much for me to put into it... Will run me close to
1000$ and I can spend that better on caring for the animals.
VAReptileRescue: Damien, how about you?
SmallScaleRescue: I have however taken great pains to join
organizations such as wisconsin dog and all other breed rescue which
police the groups involved
damien: pending forever... it takes an act of congress or something
PHFlame: juuniper, are you ready with your next question?
DrkDragon_nr: *?*
juuniper77: yep...what is your adoption rates? animals taken
in vs. adopted out
SmallScaleRescue: I took in around 100 animals last year...
I adopted to private homes around 25...
MMRR: Iguanas are very difficult to place and we get few good
adoption apps for them. Other species are not so difficult and we
have waiting lists for some of those.
MMRR: Geckos and BD's adopt out fairly quickly
VAReptileRescue: A few animals are retained for our educational
programs. But the vast majority are adopted out. Sometimes it takes
a while, but they are not placed "first come, first served".
I'm picky.
SmallScaleRescue: Some of the animals were placed in private
institutions...
VAReptileRescue: ga
MMRR: Aquatic turtles are usually here for a long time.
palex134: ?
MMRR: GA
SmallScaleRescue: Some were euthanized and some are still sitting
here....
SmallScaleRescue: GA
PHFlame: Palex, we have been waiting for you! you are up
palex134: ooh
juuniper77: !
palex134: have you ever adopted out a crested gecko?
MMRR: No
VAReptileRescue: Palex, no. That's one of the species I've
personally not gotten into rescue. But that doesn't mean it won't
happen. As they increase in popularity, the odds are, they will get
turned in.
VAReptileRescue: ga
SmallScaleRescue: Never even had one...
SmallScaleRescue: GA
MMRR: hey Carole!
PHFlame: golf diva, you are up
palex134: ?
golfdiva: What are some main reasons you turn down prospetive
adopters?
VAReptileRescue: 1) lack of knowledge combined with an attitude
of "you can't teach me any different"
VAReptileRescue: 2) inadequate experience for the species
they want
MMRR: There are many reasons but the most common are lack of
workable knowledge and the "want a cool pet" issue.
VAReptileRescue: 3) they want to breed it
MMRR: We also get alot of applications wanting to adopt as
a gift for someone.
VAReptileRescue: 4) do not have a stable home situation
SmallScaleRescue: I do police background checks... To be honest,
most of my rejections are drug related offenses
WildlifeResQ_nr: How do you do a police background check?
VAReptileRescue: Oh, man... Cindy, that's bad...
SmallScaleRescue: I ahve an agreement with animal control to
not adopt to peope with certain crimes in background
SmallScaleRescue: GA
PHFlame: cody, you are up
SmallScaleRescue: There is actually in WI a website where we
can check
Crazycodykadunk: You guys ever get any anacondas at the rescue becouse
i can help take them off your hands if u want
SmallScaleRescue: Yep... And condas happen to be on my non
public adopt list
MMRR: Actually we do have anacondas but we also have an agreement
with the surrendering association not to adopt them to a pet situation.
VAReptileRescue: same here
SmallScaleRescue: ga
MMRR: GA
VAReptileRescue: ga
PHFlame: aggie, you are next
aggietech02: Do you see folks that try rescue as a way to get
"cheap" animals??
SmallScaleRescue: yep... Animal control tends to not want them
out in public...
SmallScaleRescue: GA
VAReptileRescue: Yes
SmallScaleRescue: All the time...
VAReptileRescue: Mostly breeders who are looking for new breeding
stock.
MMRR: Yes, you can see that all over the internet.
SmallScaleRescue: My fees actually vary from animal to animal...
I try to keep fees inline with medical costs...
SmallScaleRescue: If I spend 200 buck to get an animal back
to health i try to recoup that... because lord knows I cant give some
animals away... I have had people accuse me of selling...
aggietech02: Do you ever just say no??
VAReptileRescue: I have folks e-mail or call all the time
with the "Hey, I'll take all those boas off your hands"
type message. Bzzzzz... NOT going to happen...
SmallScaleRescue: Yes... All the time
PHFlame: No more questions for this chat, please. The Q is
full
SmallScaleRescue: I have people who want ALL my females of
a snake... Aint gonna happen
SmallScaleRescue: GA
VAReptileRescue: Yes... I say no more often than yes.
VAReptileRescue: ga
MMRR: We turn down applicants all of the time, probably 90%
of the time
PHFlame: stano, you are up
stano40: '?'Yes - are there any herp rescue centers in Maine
VAReptileRescue: Stano, Maine has some strict laws about herps,
if you aren't aware.
VAReptileRescue: The Maine Herp Society does limited rescue.
SmallScaleRescue: Off the top of my head I cant think of anyone,
perhaps jane or bonnie know someone otherwise check www.rescuenetwork.org
or www.petfinder.com
palex134: I live in maine
MMRR: I'm not aware of any rescues in Maine.
MMRR: GA
SmallScaleRescue: GA
VAReptileRescue: There is also a lady in Bangor that does
some rescue. E-mail me, and I can forward your mail to her.
VAReptileRescue: I was the founder of the NH Herp Society,
so I have Maine contacts.
VAReptileRescue: That's the Maine Herp Society webpage.
palex134: Maineherp.org
PHFlame: juuniper, another question?
SmallScaleRescue: SOLD!
PHFlame: juuniper, are you ready?
juuniper77: sorry yes
juuniper77: actually i had a comment to VA;) where in VA are
you...there is a HERP GOD In VA, near DC. dr scott stahl i did an
internship with him
VAReptileRescue: LOL, yes, I know Scott!! Wish I were closer
to his Highness... ;-) I'm in Richmond, about 90 minutes from him.
MMRR: Jen, you CANNOT go to VA! That's final!
PHFaust: We DID try to get Scott for this years chat week...
perhaps next year
juuniper77: next time you see him, tell him jen periat says
hi;) random people tell him that all the time, it throws him off lol
SmallScaleRescue: Hey jen, what about up here by me?
VAReptileRescue: Will do!!
mincus:: no tort peeps though
VAReptileRescue: hehehehehe... love to...
SmallScaleRescue: just corss the pond...
juuniper77: LOL no worries jane, not going anywhere for a while,
i bought a house;)
juuniper77: plus jane would kill me
WildlifeResQ_nr: ?
SmallScaleRescue: ga
PHFlame: palex, you get the last question for this hour
palex134: whats has been your favorite adoption story?
serpentine_nr: has anyone bred african dwarf frogs
SmallScaleRescue: hurm
VAReptileRescue: Helping coordinate getting a large Burmese
python from NH to Louisiana for display in a nature center.
VAReptileRescue: She spent time in NY, PA, a couple months
here, and finally got a ride to LA.
SmallScaleRescue: My gator stories are always my favorite,
but recently I broke a MAJOR rule of my own.
MMRR: I would have to say that Sharkey was our best adoption
story. She lives in her own room with a heated floor and spends her
summers on a boat!!
SmallScaleRescue: I adopted to someone who at the time we took
app was 17
VAReptileRescue: Now she's fat and happy at Bluebonnet Swamp
Nature Center in Baton Rouge.
damien: an iguana with a broken leg and cigarette burns that
was adopted by an exotic vet specializing in iguanas
SmallScaleRescue: The day he turned 18 he adopted one of my
small savys...
SmallScaleRescue: This person has turned out to be one of my
best adoptors... I keep close tabs on him...
VAReptileRescue: ga
SmallScaleRescue: I have seen everything from belly burns so
bad organs are falling out to pot bowl burns on iguana legs... Seeing
someone REALLY happy with a plain old common animal and doing well
is a WONDERFUL thing
SmallScaleRescue: ga
PHFlame: Panellists, on behalf of all of us at Kingsnake.com,
thank you so much for being our guest tonight! Thank you to all who
joined us tonight as well. You will find a log posted tomorrow on
the Chat Week page.
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