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Jeff Barringer: I want to thank everyone, panelists and guests, for coming tonight. We have a very full room and I see many names I recognize here. I think that this might be the most important chat kingsnake.com has ever hosted. I wish we could have all come together under less contentious circumstances. I think that this USF & W request may give us as a hobby, a community, and an industry an opportunity to put some of these issues to rest. I hope that the process for review that is in place is a fair one, and give us a chance to present our case. That said. I think that we have entered dangerous territory, the most dangerous yet. Until now these issue have been dealt with at a statre and local level. I don't feel that the issue warrants action at the federal level

Jeff Barringer: Let me if I could post the summary

Jeff Barringer: SUMMARY: We, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service or We), are reviewing available biological and economic information on constrictor snakes in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera for possible addition to the list of injurious wildlife under the Lacey Act. The importation and introduction of constrictor snakes into the natural ecosystems of the United States may pose a threat to the interests of agriculture, horticulture, forestry; to the health and welfare of human beings; and to the welfare and survival of wildlife and wildlife resources in the United States. An injurious wildlife listing would prohibit the importation into, or transportation between, States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the United States by any means, without a permit. Permits may be issued for scientific, medical, educational, or zoological purposes. This document seeks comments from the public to aid in determining if a proposed rule is warranted.

Dave Barker: we snake keepers all face the possibility of seeing boas and pythons being placed on the injurious species list

Dave Barker: it will be a blow to us all, spiritual and financial probably more spiritual, for most us

Dave Barker: Where will we put several hundred thousand animals if they are banned, at least banned from interstate travel

Kevin McCurley: We are ALL listening....

Dave Barker: maybe it time (past time) for us all to consider organizing a national snake keeper organization

Kevin McCurley: NSKO.....not much of a ring to it.

Ralph Davis: does it have to say "snake keeper"?

Dave Barker: no

Tracy Barker: In the past 20 years captive breeders have established hundreds of species in captivity. We all should be proud of that, it is our legacy to our children. In 1981 I wanted to bring Golden toads into captivity while I was working in zoos at the time. Everyone thought they should be left in the wild. I believe they are classified as extinct at this time or at least have not been found in many years.

Kevin McCurley: Tracy only if you had..... that would have been WONDERFUL!!!!!

PHFaust: Erin Williams, you are from US Fish and Wildlife, would you like to explain this in more detail for our guest?

Jeff Barringer: Maybe tell us a bit about yourself ;)

Erin Williams: I'm a Fish and Wildlife Biologist that has been working on invasive issues for about 9 years.

Erin Williams: Thanks - I'm happy to be here to talk about this Notice of Inquiry (NOI) - this is an information gathering process. I really want to stress that this is NOT a proposed rule or action. As part of processing the petition we received to list Burmese pythons as injurious, we opened up this comment period to gather information especially which species, particularly snakes such as the Burmese python, within these three genera might be a threat to native wildlife and wildlife resources. If there is a snake that has not yet been imported into the United States that might pose a threat to native wildlife, this information would be very useful. By the way, we worked with PIJAC in addressing some of the concerns and we answered a short set of Q&As with Reptiles Magazine. Please take a look when you get a chance - http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptile-news/conservation-and-legal/pijac-constrictor-regulations.aspx

Rich Ihle: Welcome! Its great to see you hear! We are very interested in getting the facts! It would be great to better understand what information they are looking for.

Erin Williams: Biology,diet, temperature sensitivity, etc. would be very useful

Ralph Davis: are tax returns data?

Jeff Barringer: I think it is important to remember that any data or comments you submit here or in regards to this proposal are public and so things such as tax records or other confidential information should not be submitted

PHFaust: Marshall is here from PIJAC, Marshall please go next....

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: First and foremost want to make it clear that this is not a proposed rule making. I will follow with what is PIJAC

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: It has to be emphasized that the pending Notice of Inquiry is NOT a proposed rule making. This is merely an information gathering exercise. There is no proposal to list a species or to change the Lacey Act. PIJAC issued a PetAlert which explains in English. PIJAC's February 11 PetAlert can be found at www.pijac.org. The FWS Notice is also on PIJAC web site

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: PIJAC (Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council) is a trade association representing all segments of the pet industry. PIJAC's mission is to ensure the availability of pets, foster environmental stewardship and animal welfare. PIJAC's governmental affairs activities cover international, national, state and local regulation of companion animals.

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: I am PIJAC's Executive Vice President and General Counsel, have been involved with injurious wildlife issues since 1973 when the Fish and Wildlife Service proposed to ban all non-native species as "injurious"[invasive] unless the FWS determined on a species by species basis that the species was not harmful to the environment, agriculture, or man.

Bob Clark: I'm not sure I want to hear my trade organization telling me not to worry. Don't we pay them to worry?

Brian Sharp: yes, but this notice is the first step in that process, and I think most people will forgive me for being suspicious of USFW's intentions.

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: PIJAC has never said not to worry - PIJAC has said that we need to gather good data to provide the service.

Bob Clark: I'm a little nervous myself! What is PIJAC doing about the problem now?

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: We need to approach this by providing the FWS data not simply;y telling them you oppose. That is why PIJAC has established an experts committee to review the literature on the genera, including biology, captive breeding information, and trade data.

Bob Clark: Who would have guessed last month that the crisis d'jour would be a python invasion? I'm still waiting to be impacted by killer bees, movie theater popcorn and manmade global warming. When I was in high school they told me an ice age was coming! As ridiculous as this thing seems, make no mistake, its serious. This is junk science and it will whip the public into a frenzy. The media loves a story like this. It sounds perfectly reasonable to most people that we should ban animals that could establish themselves in our neighborhoods, eat our children and have our dog for dessert. We've got a real problem looming ahead. We'll have to deal with it ourselves. Most people that care at all are against us and I worry that the few of us that do care expect someone else to fight for their rights. I'm generally not an alarmist but this is trouble!

Dave Barker: Erin, you must realize that after many relatively quiet years, snake keepers have in the past year seen, I think, 11 states pass strict regulations or bans, and most are sponsored openly by animal rights groups. We are a little suspicious and jumpy just now...

Trooper Walsh: I think this bill is a Florida issue, and should have stayed a Florida issue.

Jeff Ronne: My greatest concern, other than losing everything financially I personally have worked for over the past 20 years, is that all this is not so much a fact finding endeavor as much as it seems to be an irrational conclusion some in government have apparently already made up their mind about. ie: It seems to me that at least one governmental source, the U.S. Geological Survey, is already willing to put together a fantasy map of what somebody thinks could be reality. All this without considering the fact that Burmese Pythons in captivity, for instance, largely came from one area in the wild.

Bill Brandt: As Marshall has said, the role that PIJAC is fulfilling is one of information gathering and transfer to FWS. PIJAC will do this to represent the industry as best it can.

Jeff Ronne: As such those animals, that may do well is certain isolated areas on Florida, but would not survive at all in more temperate areas even in northern Florida. It would require millennia of change and adaptation before these tropical serpents would adapt to the wide range that is shown on the map done by the USGS. My hope, perhaps naively, is that logic and doing the right thing, will somehow will find it's way into the decision making process and not the irrational hysteria that often comes up when anyone brings up snakes.

Erin Williams: I understand. I want to remind you all that this is an information gathering process - we have to take a look at the issue.

Kevin McCurley: Our industry as a whole has a great percentage of true reptile experts, many with a focus on particular species. Most if not all of us keep animals due to the fact that we appreciate them and they allow us to revel in animals that exist in nature. Many of us have pursued our passion to the point that we wish to propagate the species that we keep in our collections. By keeping these animals we understand their needs and ultimately know what conditions allow them to flourish and what makes them fail. Step aside from the "hype" that creates news, this is reality and we know the "facts" are unjust and we need to be heard. We have a single mission, the new proposals are unfounded w/o correct and solid facts!

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: PIJAC is providing a way for people to submit data to us for combining in a report so people. Again, the best way to demonstrate that these species are not a problem is to provide the Service good data. PIJAC is also conducting a survey to gather information itemized in the FWS Notice. The survey responses will be aggregated and submitted as a consolidated response. We also need any information you have on special traits by species as to special requirements for habitat, food, captive breeding , etc. People responding to the survey will remain anonymous.

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: It is essential to submit constructive comments with good information. People meed to focus on the questions contained in the FWS Notice and provide information on thise issues. Vast majority of comments submitted to date do not provide data.

Bob Clark: I'm a little uneasy that as soon as USFWS opened a comment period that USGS presents a "study" saying that Burmese pythons can colonize 1/3 of the US

Erin Williams: We have come to no conclusions.

Don Schultz: sure

Don Schultz: My name is Don Schultz. I am the National Sales Manager for T-Rex Products, an importer of record, founder of www.mfezi.com, an author, photographer, videographer, researcher and I run an eco-tourism company that conducts herp based eco-tours to Africa. I try and travel as much as possible, seeing places and animals around the world before they disappear.

Don Schultz: I look at the situation in the Everglades and have a hard time seeing pythons accomplishing a complete migration across state to California. Even if the world warms the way that was mentioned in this research, errand pythons are the least of our worries, and I live in San Diego, which would effectively be under water!! Burm's are not the biggest problem then, Great White Sharks are probably going to pose a bigger threat to people and pets.

Don Schultz: Bigger concerns as far as injurious wildlife must certainly be taken into account; animals like feral cats do a lot more persistent, widespread damage. Some estimates put the domestic house cat population at 60 million and the feral cat population at the same number, that's 120 million animals. In contrast, since 1975 less than 200 000 Burmese Pythons have been imported into the USA (see http://www.unep-wcmc.org/citestrade

Don Schultz: While initiatives like Habitattitude and NRIP help the industry, the environment and the animals, the entire industry can contribute to the responsible ownership of herpetofauna, but an outright ban makes no sense. I, at this point in time, do not own any pythons or boa's, but I would like the right to make that decision in the future.

Kevin McCurley: To suggest that pythons will "burrow" and "hibernate" to avoid cold temperatures is completely WRONG!!!

Brian Sharp: That USGS "study" is the product of either incompetence or intellectual dishonesty. If USFW decides to use that study as a premise to make the leap from what is clearly a south Florida problem, it will call into serious question the motives and objectivity of USFW.

Jeff Barringer: I would suggest that the USGS study will be but one piece of data looked at

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: PIJAC is preparing comments for FWS as well as a paprer for a peer reviewed publication addressing the USGS document.

Kevin McCurley: The USGS is more like something claimed to make NEWS!!! Perhaps we are getting tired of hearing about the presidential candidates?

Don Schultz: Slow news week

Erin Williams: We realize that many of you are experts and responsible pet owners - we'd like to urge you to submit useful, factual information. If you're most comfortable doing that through PIJAC, that's fine. Yes, Jeff, you are correct - we will look at ALL data provided and gathered.

Dave Barker: Everybody understand that Erin is from USJ&W while the infamous and fanciful Burmese report came from USGS--they are two different government entities. USF&W had nothing to do with that Burmese climate paper

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: PIJAC has established a committee mof experts to review the literature on the genera, including biology, captive breeding information, trade data. etc.We hope to complete an exhaustive literature review..

Bob Clark: Were the USGS researchers invited? Is either here?

Jeff Barringer: USGS was invited but declined wishing to focus on the USFW request

PHFaust: We plan on having USGS at a different chat next month. The info will be posted as soon as it is set.

Trooper Walsh: I read the proposal and I've also read the literature generated by USGS addressing what MIGHT happen 100 years from now if Burmese Pythons spread from the Everglades to California AND if Global Warming provides climate suitable to sustain breeding populations. IF all that were true I think North America would be having bigger problems than SNAKES...! IMO, the USGS paper by Rodda, et al, was based on bad science at best, and more likely Chicken Little.

Don Schultz: Are geologists are the best people to study snake behavoir?

Trooper Walsh: Don I had the same thought

Bob Clark: Rodda didn't hesitate to be on every news program and in every newspaper, though.

Don Schultz: Will they be answering husbandry questions??

Don Schultz: How many "experts" were consulted before the "research" was released??

Brian Sharp: I think we also need to enlist the efforts of some of the well known TV naturalists who can refute these ridiculous USGS assertions in TV and print media interviews, and fight fire with fire.

Kevin McCurley: Erin, you realize how painful this is for us to witness quoted supposed "experts" speaking non-sense and claims that are ABSOLUTLEY INCORRECT??

Trooper Walsh: It seems to me the USGS has spent OUR tax dollars and THEIR budget on issues having nothing to do with rocks... This reaks of mismanagement and perhaps warrants a Federal Crime. I would like to see the formula Rodda used to project that there are 30,000 in the Everglades

Dave Barker: usgs does many things, they have a staff of biologists and they work with invasive species, though mostly plants

Kevin McCurley: Yes Bob, what actual proof do we have? Are there public records and proof of the Burmese Python crimes?

BrianPotter: Is it true that Rodda is getting a GIANT grant for this work????

Kevin McCurley: Yes he is Brian!

BrianPotter: snakes get bigger grants than rocks I bet.......

Don Schultz: haha, Snakes, plants... rocks.. same thing

Kevin McCurley: A plant is a far cry from invasive pythons and boas!

Bob Clark: The headline in our newspaper was "Giant Snakes to Slither into State" for crying out loud!

Kevin McCurley: "A 20' Burmese Python coming to a neighborhood near you!" Fox News..

Trooper Walsh: Tropical South Florida is likely the only place Burms and such can survive and thrive, if that. Certainly NOT with a population of 30,000 individuals - THAT was produced by Rodda with BAD SCIENCE

Don Schultz: Good science= bad news story

Jeff Barringer: I think that most all of us can agree that the USGS paper has issues - I think we need to focus here on trying to understand the process and procedures of the USFWS request

Trooper Walsh: Are we talking about the scary snakes from Hell or the gun issue...?

Kevin McCurley: Erin, we seem to be skating around a simple fact. NOne of the snakes can handle these temperatures.

Bob Clark: Can we confirm that a selfsustaining population of Burmese pythons has become established in Florida?

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: The FWS has not released any research. We have no idea what USGS did - they acted independently. The USGS document will have to be submitted to FWS as a comment and be considered like anyone elses comments Bob Clark: I talked to Rodda, he's intellegent, articulate and convincing. To someone without any biological backgound he sounds perfectly reasonable.

Kevin McCurley: Simple way to prove it. Take these species and get them cold. Watch what happens. You can collect all the paperwork you want but it would clearly state "our" argument!

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: Jeff is right - we need to focus on responding to the USFWS Notice. We will address the USGS doc as part of our respective sets of comments.

Dave Barker: wait a minute, guys. You are confusing the Burmese paper (which understandably is on everyone's mind) with the request fo information that was posted in the Federal Register by USF&W.

Trooper Walsh: Dave, you are right about needing to address the F&W proposal...

Brian Sharp: Dave, the USGS and the USFW are both agencies of the same overall organization, the Dept of the Interior. If you think that the two activities are unrelated, I beg to differ.

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: While we know that we have to provide science based infomration to butress arguments on thermo-regualtory limits. Just can not say it. That is why PIJAC is conducting literature search and encourgaing people to send us whatever info they have so we can preapre an extensive submission based on the litereature and other data received from both seic\ntifi community and you the hobbyists.

Don Schultz: look at Python natalensis range, a very similar species to the burm, in prime conditions, it only occurs in warmer climates in Southern Africa

Kevin McCurley: We should not even worry about "impact' when the species will DIE in the cooler conditions. They do not burrow and adapt to such temperatures!

Dave Barker: read carefullywhat PIJAC/Marshall is writing. The greater danger to us is the consideration to place any boas and pythons on the injurious species list. The Burmese article was terrible publicity for us all, but it amounts to one comment sent to USF&W Service. We each also get to comment

Brian Sharp: Dave. Unfortunately the USGS article was far more than one comment. It put a lot of misinformation out in the public arena, using inflammatory language and also suggesting that state and local governmental agencies and decision makers use that informaton when considering new restrictive legislation. That is not playing fair on the part of the government.

Tracy Barker: Bill, Erin, could you comment on the program in Florida that has been initiated to a) study Burmese in the Everglades and b) initiate the permit system for captive Burmese, Retics, and Anacondas in the state of Florida?

Bill Brandt: The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, and Florida State Legislature have addressed the issue as of January 2008 by rule and statute.

Jeff Barringer: Erin, what other governmental agencies do you expect to submit data pursuant to the request, besides USGS

Erin Williams: This is a comment period open to all. We hope States will also provide comments. We are not asking for comments from any specific federal agencies.

Jeff Barringer: ok - I know that many states will be participating, at least their FW depts will - How can we as an industry facilitate getting you the information you need?

PHFaust: Erin, the guests are asking what comments are you looking at getting. If any other panelists have suggestions that would be great as well

Erin Williams: There are several options for submitting comments - please follow the process in the Federal Register notice so that we receive your comments officially.

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: You can go to PIJAC website and get info from PIJAC Feb 11 PetAlert as well as download copy of FWS Notice. www.pijac.org

Brian Sharp: The USFW in its Notice of Inquiry has asked 10 questions, most of which deal with economice, ecological and state regulatory issues. However, the heart of the matter is whether species of these genera can survive in the U.S.? The answer, with the exception of south Florida, is a resounding NO. Data provided from the National Weather Service based on a 58 year study from 1948 to 2006 shows that except for the southern half of Florida virtually the rest of the U.S. experiences at least 10 days each winter when the daily minimum temperature is below 32 degrees F. In most states the number of sub-freezing days is much higher. Sustained exposure to sub-freezing temps results in certain death. This leads us to the rather obvious conclusion; if these animals can't over winterand reproduce they can't have a significant adverse impact on the native flora and fauna or on agriculture.

Erin Williams: Comments do not have to be limited to the questions in the FR notice - please provide any relevant information - particularly biological info such as diet, reproduction, temperature range, etc. What might the impacts of these species be?

Jeff Ronne: Brian is absolutely right. The Federal Register request for information acts as if it is a forgone conclusion that Boas and Pythons are legitimate concern to the environment. The request for information is more like getting an inventory of what might be out there and about the business end and nothing to do with the viability of these animals to survive in the wild.

Jeff Barringer: Erin once the comments have been received what happens then, after April 30

Erin Williams: After April 30th, all comments will be looked at for information about the issue. We're not sure what the next step, if anything, will be.

Kevin McCurley: A very simple fact here. We need EVERYONE to get involved and voice their thoughts. Numbers, we have them and we need to do some screaming! Everyone's voice is equal when it comes to sending a letter!

Trooper Walsh: Evilmorph is right - everyone needs to get involved on this issue. It does not matter if you are a pet hobbyist or Zoo Director...everyone of us have the right to a say on this proposal

Jeff Barringer: so after April 30th you could choose to take no action, or you could choose to take some kind of action

Jeff Ronne: Just a little bit of info that the Federal Register did not ask for. Just to pick one southern city. It's predicted to be below 40 degrees six of the next ten nights in Atlanta, Georgia. I know if I did that to my Boas, I would have a whole lot of very sick and or dead Boas very shortly. Where would we submit this information?

Bill Brandt: PIJAC is going to take the role of information collecting so that there is anonymity for the individuals. Hopefully this will enable people to give information without fearing being found out.

Jeff Barringer: lets assume you decide to take some kind of action, what happens then

Trooper Walsh: There is more to sustaining a wild population of Burms or other "dangerous, non-indigenous wildlife than "climate"

Bob Clark: Erin, is it coincidence that the USGS paper came out during the USFWS comment period?

Erin Williams: Yes, we're both under the Dept of Interior, but we have different missions.

Brian Sharp: Both organizations ultimately answer to the same political appointee that is the Secretary of the Interior.

Erin Williams: We didn't know USGS was going to release the maps/paper.

Kevin McCurley: Erin, where does the USFW find its experts?

Bob Clark: Erin, so that was just a strange coincidence?

Dave Barker: it may have not been a coincidence on Rodda's part

Dave Barker: it was good timing

Erin Williams: I encourage you to talk directly with USGS about their maps. We did not know they were going to release them.

Jeff Barringer: Lets stick to the info request

Dave Barker: certainly got our attention

Kevin McCurley: Dear General Public. Do you realize that if carrying your pet python across a state border is a Lacey Act violation...it could become a Federal Crime. The Govt would have its way with you!

Bill Brandt: The problem in the Everglades is partially the result of release of unwanted pets. This is the reason the whole herp community needs to participate in Do Not Release projects such as Habitattitude.

Jeff Barringer: Erin, lets assume that you have the data and decide to take some kind of action. What would be the process

Erin Williams: Next steps, if any? There would a public comment period if an evaluation moved forward. We have not made up our minds about anything. The questions in the FR were included to give an idea of some of the information - both biological and economic that we would need. Economic costs of a potential rule, especially to small businesses is evaluated.

Jeff Ronne: Erin: The greatest frustration I feel is as I wrote earlier and Brain Sharp referred to. The Fed Reg form does not address the viability of any of these animals to actually survive in the wild here anywhere but parts of southern Florida. How do we have an impact on getting that information to Fish and Wildlife? That is unless Fish and Wildlife has already made up it's mind on that point.

Dave Barker: I agree totally

Bob Clark: Erin, how will USFWS weigh my financial information against potential enviromental damage. Snail darters stopped a dam and I'm a little worried.

Kevin McCurley: I'm only interested in the carrot in front of me. These species WILL NOT SURVIVE if set free!!! Why do we have to explain the ruin of our hobby and business if that is all secondary?

Dave Barker: we need to keep snail darters

Rich Ihle: While I havent really learned anything, at least tonight was a good start and we have the ball rolling. Thanks to Kingsnake.com for putting this together!

Trooper Walsh: We ALL have a right to respond to the proposed regulations. We all NEED to respond...

Jeff Barringer: Marshall - what can hobbyists do to help PIJAC get ready with their response?

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: Go to the PIJAC website www.pijac.org for more information. Also if interested in working with us on gathering info please email the contacts in the PetAlert. PIJAC is directly taking on the USGS paper in the peer reviewed literature with the intent of elucidating all of the misinformation and the process through which it arose. Please send PIJAC temperature infomration for us to work into our comments.

Brian Sharp: Erin, in a phone conversation you mentioned that despite how the Notice was worded, USFW really has two concerns; potential danger to the ecology and danger to humans. If these animals can't survive and reproduce, the issue of danger to the ecology seems moot, except for south Florida.

Brian Sharp: Regarding the issue of danger to humans, the number of reported injuries requiring medical treatment is so small that it is not statistically significant. A compilation of data from hospital emergency departments of all animal bites that reuqired treatment shows that 98% are from dogs and cats. The remaining 1 to 2 % of bits is from all animals other than dogs or cats. This means that bites from non-venomous snakes represent only a fraction of a percent, and are not even worthy of being mentioned as a separate category.

Dave Barker: That is true, Brian, but here in TX the legislators didn't care--snakes is snakes

Don Schultz: I know what happened in TX was at the state level, but that has left a bitter taste in everyones mouth.. and the whole herp world is still in shock at those decisions

Kevin McCurley: Brian, that is another "trivial" point. Somehow reality and facts are just opinions when we say it..

Brian Sharp: Well, somebody with a shred of integrity needs to care! How about it USFW?

Bill Brandt: There have been many comments on the survivability of boids in the wild. Please send this temperature info in with your contacts.

Don Schultz: PIJAC--- even if we blow the USGS paper out of the water, which we will, it will not make CNN or USA Today and the perception is that the pythons "Are coming straight for us"

Don Schultz: The issue with the USGS maps is that even if they retract the whole "research" paper, its not sexy and wont make the news, this misinformation will be cited for years to come just, as one person said, like the killer bees, west nile virus and bird flu

Kevin McCurley: Erin, in some ways it seems that USFWS is testing its power and abilities to alter our freedoms.... the simple facts are being masked and the most important points are being made to look almost trivial.

Trooper Walsh: Would it be worth addressing here how individuals can go about responding to the proposed regs...?

Bill Brandt: It is important that we write individual letter to FWS rather than a form letter. This has much more impact than a form letter.

Erin Williams: PLEASE submit comments and INFORMATION :-)

Trooper Walsh: Where can someone interested in responding publically about this proposal go to find the actual proposal, and learn how to go about commenting about it...?

Bill Brandt: Trooper, you can go to www.pijac.org

Jeff Ronne: Unfortunatly this is all more about politics than about facts. The form set up appears to me to be going through the motions rather than a genuine request for facts. The recent newspaper articles and the new fantasy map are just the beginning of a media effort to keep us from plying our trade. I hope I am wrong.

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: Having been involved in invasive issues for some 30 plus years with the FWS, they are not exercising their power. The Service has not moved forward on number of proposed listing becuase the science DOES NOT support the listings. They have not attempted to push things through via the media or not being transparnet. That is partly due to fact PIJAC has successfully challanged several poorly done proposals. What wwe need are facts not fear.

Kevin McCurley: Erin, what do you do with the "data"? Is it less valuable if it comes from a hobbyist w/o a degree? What criteria do your "experts" meet? Serioulsy?

Trooper Walsh: Erin, what are you calling "data"?

Erin Williams: A lot of text to read through and I'm not seeing everything. You don't have to provide books, etc., but if you can point us to looking at references or citations that would be good information, please include those in your comments.

PHFaust: Erin we are rounding the hour and you have taken a lot of fire, do you have an comments before we close?

Erin Williams: I appreciate the opportunity to chat tonight. It's clear to me that you all have data that would be very valuable to our evaluation of this issue. Please, please provide data through the public comment process. And remember, this is only an information gathering effort at this time.

Jeff Barringer: I want to thank everyone, panelists and guests, for coming tonight. I especially want to thank Erin William's who couldn't possibly answer all the questions, even the reals ones, we submitted, and had to fade the heat for someone elses map.

Don Schultz: Thanks Erin...

Erin Williams: Prevention is key. And remember have a Habitattitude!

Dave Barker: thanks erin

Erin Williams: Thanks to PIJAC for helping gather a great deal of public input. Thanks again for a lively chat. Sorry folks, it's way past my bedtime. Goodnight.

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: Thanks Jeff for hosting this discussion. For those interested in helping, please contact PIJAC. ANY DATA provided PIJAC will be treated as confidential and combined with other data so not idenfiable to an individual.

Dave Barker: private keepers may have "data" that simply is not available, not published

Bill Brandt: Thanks to everyone joining in this evening. We hear loud and clear that this is an issue of importance to everyone. PIJAC is commited to being the voice of the industry.

Ralph Davis: Who here agrees that a band of the biggest and best python / boa breeders on the planet can not stop this in it's tracks?,,,,,,organize and stay alert and "on top" and any new "proposed" fact finding BS.....

Don Schultz: agreed

Ralph Davis: bottom line, we need to get organized and put people on the front line that actually "do this for a living"

Kevin McCurley: Exactly as Ralph says. We need to be collected, on the same side and have clear objectives.

Ralph Davis: and funded

BrianPotter: Bob and I are just glad to see everyone come out and get ready for the fight of our lives. We are proposing a meeting at the end of the month in Chicago. We will circulate an e-mail in the next few days with the details. This will be to set up a group of individuals that will get information to PIJAC and back to the public about legal matters we all need to be involved with. Bob and I would act as the go-betweens and make sure that everyone in the industry is kept in the loop and keep PIJAC aware of our concerns. We think this may be the best way to take action and for everyone to know whats going on. We would like to have the group consist of people in the industry that can reach the masses (a list will be circulated next week). This is a very preliminary meeting to set up a way to disseminate information to and from PIJAC.

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: Brian - please clarify what u mean. As trade association for live animals issues PIJAC will remain point of focus for gathering info, receiving input from the herp community, developiong policy position, and preparing industry reposne. We welcome contirbutions from everyone and encourage people to be as scientific and technical as possible incomments they provide us as well as the FWS.

BrianPotter: Bob and I want to be able to effectively disseminate the info to and from PIJAC so that the industry is aware of progress and or needs as they come up.

Ralph Davis: so Potter.....what do you need?

Don Schultz: yeah Potter...

Rich Ihle: I think we should have that gathering of herpers in the industry that Brian suggested so we can unify.

BrianPotter: Guys........this is sad and not accomplishing a thing. Lets get this meeting in Chicago on the calendar and get this moving forward. We can work for 3 days and get some real work accomplished in person. This is doing nothing for us! We need an organized dissemination of information not just people yelling out in a crowd. LETS GET ORGANIZED GUYS!

Don Schultz: When and where? Get something on your site and we will get the word out!!

Dave Barker: One important piece of info is what happens when each species is exposed to 50 degrees? 40 degrees? 35 degrees. that may have accidentally happened to some of you. no one has ever done an "experiment"

Kevin McCurley: That is what I was saying Dave!!!! Easy to prove!!!! A very simple a decisive set of tests that leave REAL DEAD RESULTS!!!!!

Kevin McCurley: Bob ...got any sacraficial snakes you want to send out to a non-biased test group?

Don Schultz: Yeah, POTTER... when and where in Chicago---- I am there

Rich Ihle: I need to know when the meeting is!

Don Schultz: Thanks for hosting it!! Lets not sit on our a@$es, lets meet in chicago and start the letters asa

Ralph Davis: I agree......we can't look like the bafoons that realeased their burms into the glades......

PHLdyPayne: You all have very good data and information, best thing to do is what PIJAC suggests and send it in... it was also mentioned all data will be compied and submitted annoyminously, so scientific credentials are irrelevant. If you have references to published works, quote them too...

Don Schultz: My fear is that data we provide will be viewed as "biased" and discounted

Don Schultz: can we use an independant company to do such research?

Tracy Barker: I don't think that we have worked with reptiles for close to 35 years to have a prejudicial determination of whether we will be able to maintain species for the future.

Dave Barker: but herpers may have all that info in the form of experience.

Don Schultz: I agree Dave, but FWS never seem to believe me, maybe cause I am african??

Bob Clark: Marshall, has PIJAC ever acted on behalf or our industry?

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: PIJAC has enjoyed a credible and good realtionship with the FWS. ALL PIJAC does is act on behalf of the industry and has spent a sig amount of effort on herps

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: If anyone would like recent tesitmony by PIJAC on its position of invasive email me at @pijac.org

Bob Clark: anything specific?

Brian Sharp: I think the best thing to do is submit your information to PIJAC AND post it in the Federal Register. That way you can be sure everything you want to say gets said.

Kevin McCurley: What I do not understand is that our best experts that clearly are...such as Dave and Tracy...lots of credentials....why would USFWS not look at them as experts? Is it becasue they are "biased"?

Jeff Barringer: I don't think that USFWS has not looked at them as experts . I don't think they have had an opportunity to evaluate their comments

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: It is not a matter of who submits but what they submit. People need to understand that providing the FWS facts and references to literature is important. The Service is looking for facts/information nor bias one way or the other

Trooper Walsh: Does this mean we are being asked to provide data on our own breeding projects...?... Papers and books written....? If so, how is this helpful...?

Jeff Barringer: I think that it's a plus to have the USGS data so early as it gives us an opportunityy to draw up our own range maps and refute their conclusions

Don Schultz: arent there some in the everglades?

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: pijac survey could capture breeding data and info for submission on behalf of the community

Kevin McCurley: Jeff.... I have the sneaking suspicion that they really don't know what to do with us and our comments and that it may be going over their heads...we are just noise..

Jeff Barringer: I think that many of the comments submitted will be seen that way but I suspect that will be the more "mass" generated comments.The ones that are on topic and in depth will carry more weight

Bob Clark: Kevin, i just want to know that the money I give is making something happen.

Kevin McCurley: Bob, I think the best focus is on the fact that these snakes will not survive if subjected to such temps...an easy thing to prove and everything else in their argument is a moot point!

Trooper Walsh: Jeff... It might be nice if Kingsnake could develop a place to provide a template letter to be sent to F&W in response to these proposals...

Jeff Barringer: I think a template would be wrong - we dont want form letters

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: A template letter is not useful ---

Jeff Barringer: What we should do is prepare several different statements regarding several different issues and ask everyone to pick one and elaborate in their own words

Brian Sharp: Jeff's right about not using a form letter. Erin told me that this is not a vote being taken.

Trooper Walsh: OK...then put up examples of what is useful.

Dave Barker: letters, letters, letters, we all have to write our own letters and we have to help as many other people who support us to write letters.

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: this process is not like a presidential primary - no one is counting votes - nor is there a caucus

Don Schultz: I dont understand why we have to offer data to USFWS, dont they have researchers that get paid to amass said data...

Kevin McCurley: Why wouldn't the USFWS do their own study with the concerned species and subject them to these temperatures? it seems quite easy but not a topic? Why?

Jeff Barringer: Actually I think that would fall under the aegis of the USGS

Jeff Ronne: Kevi Wevi, I seriously doubt they are after facts. We need competent spokespeople to make our case using that data. Great data will not make the difference if we do not use good communicators to deliver that information. I think that means using PIJAC because they have already been doing this. I just hope they will step up and give us our moneys worth.

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: Don -- it is part of a Fed Laws that requires this as part of a stakeholder process by which public invited to engage. FWS is also doing its own reviews of the literature

Don Schultz: I understand offering feedback, but doing their research for them is a bit of a strech, no? MM, honest question, if USFWS really wants to push this through for what ever reason, do we stand a chance?

Jeff Barringer: If the process outlined by the register and the law is followed I think we will get a fair review. If it is like Texas, where political agendas can circumvent the process, then I'm moving to Canbada

Dave Barker: They found a Burmese on Key Largo that had two endangered "Key Largo wood rats" in its stomach, also found claws from an Evergaldes bobcat in a Burmese stomach, might have been a road kill

Kevin McCurley: Snakes do eat road kill! Fact!

Dave Barker: yup

Kevin McCurley: Timber Rattlesnakes eating dead frogs on the road...

Trooper Walsh: Will F&W publish their own reviews?

Jeff Clark: We are screwed when US Fish and Wildlife can come here and lie to us that it is a coincidence that USGS map and sensational misinformation about Burmese Pythons comes out at same time they are asking for info with aim to stop interstate transport of boids. They want information so they will know who to watch after they get the ban they want. Do not trust US Fish and Wildlife and their nine year EXPERT. heck I got socks on I have had more than nine freakin years.

Bill Brandt: Jeff, as a PIJAC board member I can assure you that PIJAC takes this and many other reptile industry issues seriously.

Don Schultz: I bet if you started opening feral cats, you would find more than 2 wood rats!!

Kevin McCurley: The first fact is that the snakes will die..... we prove that then we prove how ridiculous this thing actually is!

Jeff Ronne: That is true, but notice Fish and Wildlife didn't ask anything about that. Their questions for the public, me, were only about economics and what was currently living in the wild in Minnesota.

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: With out sounding presumptious, the FWS some years ago tried to declare all non-natives invasive until proven innocent and PIJAC's challange soundly defeated that effort and from 1975 until 1999 we were left virtually alone

Don Schultz: can they put a quota on burms to be entered into the skin trade? and save wild burms?

Dave Barker: that's CITES. CITES does skin trade quotas

Don Schultz: not if they stay in the states. people still wear snake skin, no? there is no quota inside the US

Don Schultz: yes, but only on International trade

Dave Barker: not many snakes are skinned for the trade, either

Don Schultz: well, do you need any permits to "hunt" burms in the everglades

Brian Sharp: It seems to me that when a governmental agency seeks to take away any liberties of its citizens, it should be incumbent on the government to demonstrate and prove why such action is necessary, not the reverse.

Dave Barker: don't think so

Kevin McCurley: YES BRIAN - "BRAIN"!!!!!!

PHFaust: One person suggested offering a bounty on florida wild caught burms...

Dave Barker: interesting question

Don Schultz: well... either a bounty or a quota

Dave Barker: would be fun, sort of like rattlesnake roundups, but for a good cause

Don Schultz: yeah

PHLdyPayne: feed hunger.... burmese pythons are often eaten in their native habitat, if I Recall correctly

Don Schultz: humane euthanasia and sell the meat/skins

Dave Barker: we could go out and catch a buntch of Burms, come back and do stupid tricks with them in front of the public

Jeff Barringer: I would offer to open a burmese retirement home here but I don't want to go through the new permit system

Dave Barker: lol

Don Schultz: has making anything illegal ever stopped the trade??

PHFaust: One question I have is why is there so much focus on the snakes and not the iguanids that are doing more damage to flora in FL

Don Schultz: Drugs, guns, ferrets ?? Exotic snakes in Australia?

Dave Barker: and nile monitors

Don Schultz: animals coming out of Australia?

Don Schultz: I suggest a field trip to the everglades to do some herping... and collecting

Jeff Ronne: Yellow Bill Brandt! Is PIJAC planning on inviting "experts" of collecting expert information? Or detailing EXACTLY they are going to do next? I must admit this pounding the drum of, "this is only a fact finding mission" is not at all consoling to those of us who stand to loose everything financially if one day the Secretary of Interior decides to sign that order. Is something specific and public happening?

Bill Brandt: Jeff, if you would like, we can talk over the phone this coming week. My opinion is that we have to respond to this in a calm, respectful and firm manner.

Jeff Ronne: I agree Bill. PIJAC makes the most sense for sure. I don't see that we really have a choice. I'm just nervious. I'll call you. Thanks Mr. Brandt.

Bill Brandt: I know it makes everybody nervous, that's the reason we need to take it very seriously.

Wayne Hill: The fact is there are irresponsible people out there that are doing the wrong thing by releasing non-native spiecie of all kinds into the wild, chipping the reptiles that are in question may help in finding the perp. herpers that are making all this hubbub for everyone, however it still does not address the total problem of bad reptile owners that let go or loose there animals

Bill Brandt: Hey Wayne, I think we will find that the industry will look at Do Not Release programs in a new light. It will protect our industry.

Wayne Hill: Educating your potential customers before selling any snake, lizard or any other replile may help, when did this industry become for the dollar and not for the love and propagation of reptiles, we cannot just sell, sell, sell and not feel some responsibility for some of this. and in the meantime we go the way of the 4 inch turtle law

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: Please feel free to call PIJAC at 202-452-1525 to discuss further with me.. I will be at an airline meeting in Rome next week discussing animal transport so best to call after the 9th. Marshall Meyers

Don Schultz: I was at a BD/Chytrid conference in Arizona last year, and the knee jerk reaction from almost everyone about the amphibian crisis was that amphibs should be banned!! And they said the pet industry was to blame, seems like we are a scape goat for quite a bit...

Tracy Barker: Please remember that we have come a very long way in the past 20 years. We started with just a handful of people. There are now people all over the world working with these animals. Best to everyone out there and we will continue to work on this as hard as we can.

Marshall Meyers - PIJAC: By end of BD meeting PIJAC's Jamie Reaser was leading the process. Jamie is a PHD herper and is leading the PIJAC science side of our efforts.

Don Schultz: she was good And stood up for the whole industry out of 200 members, less than 10 people from the private sector

PHFaust: On behalf of kingsnake.com and Jeff Barringer, I would really like to thank all the panelists. We have begun to open the lines of communication. Please keep posted to kingsnake.com for more information on this topic.