Kingsnake.com
Brian Grieg Fry
Captive management of venomous reptiles
March 3, 2007

PHFlame: Thank you for coming to chat this evening. If you have a a question for Doug, please type ? in the room and you will be added to the queue. You WILL be called on in the order of ? recieved. Please do not type openly in the chat room. Thanks again for coming.

On behalf of Jeff Barringer and all of us at kingsnake.com, I'm very pleased to welcome Bryan Grieg Fry to our Ninth Annual Chat Week.

Dr. Fry heads a laboratory at the Department of Biochemistry in the Bio21 Institute of the University of Melbourne that specialises in the research of animal venoms. Bryan has been an incredible asset to our venomous community, having been one of our frequent guest chatters His life in his own words - "My name is Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry and I consider myself to be one of the luckiest people alive. I get to travel the globe catching snakes with my lovely wife Alexia! Ever since I was a small child, all I have ever wanted to do is play with venomous animals for a living. Its quite a satisfying feeling to have this childhood obsession come true. It makes my mum feel a bit better about the myriad of strange, unusual and often dangerous animals that took up residence in our household during my years at home!"

JayP: hey Bryan thanks for coming I keep a few venomous snakes now and one of them is the saw scaled viper and was wondering if you have worked with them if so can you give any info on the venom I have heard differnet things about them. any idea of the number of deaths they cause. whats your favorite venomous snake to work with ?

BGF: Alrighty, question one: the first time I milked a saw-scaled viper was definately a bit of a pucker moment. They turned out to be very agile and fast moving. Much more so than a death adder. We ended up using stryofoam pin boxes. They'd hit the corner and stop. I always double pin them with those little red midwest hooks. The graphite does seem to have them a bit quieter. Double pinning acts as a shock absorber when they always twitch right when the hand is above the eyes. We lock their fangs up while they are still on the ground. They can be safely lifted then since the fangs are tangled up in the pin jar

BGF: second answer: favorite snake is probalby whichever one I am capturing at the moment or working with in the collection. ;-) I just like snakes. All of them.

Maltesegirl_nr: I have a turtle.

BGF: Always have, ever since I was a little kid.

JayP: thanks i don't try to pin anything yet lol no need so far.

BGF: At heart I think we are all still eight year olds carrying a squirming pillowcase

danceswsavs_nr: Please tell a bit about varanus venoms. thanks.

BGF: Short answer: its very cool

BGF: Long answer: It's very cool. Have to start on that ;-) The venom system is verry derived. The glands are like hollow pieces of pasta. Several compartments, variable amongst the different anguimorph lizards. We've looked at gilas, borneo earless montiors, european legless lizards, american alligator lizards and all sorts of varanids including komodos. Lots of tinkering to suit skull architecture, dentition and prey type. From tiny insectivors to giant carnivores. All variations on a theme. The venom changing accordingly to. All the same sorts of adaptive variation as in the colubrids or other snakes.:

danceswsavs_nr: is there a link to any current info?

BGF: you can download a PDF our Nature paper from http://www.venomdoc.com/downloads/2005_BGF_Nature_squamate_venom.pdf

BGF: We have several other papers in various parts of the pipeline. Some under review at the moment (working their way through the scientific journal jungle and foodchain). Others are being writen and others I have a few pieces of a particular puzzle to obtain from a Cambodian temple ;-)

danceswsavs_nr: indianan jones- great- thank you

RiseAbove: How many times have you been bitten by venomous reptiles? What was the worst bite you have ever received?(If any)

BGF: Michael Shumacher has destroyed a few cars and I've had a few bites. The exact number is irrelevant. The key is to learn from it. Some things would have (in hindsight) been totally preventable. Others would be cases of 'it happens.' Worst bite was definately the horned sea snake (Acalyptophis peronii). Took about nine months to recover from.

B_Dragon: what is the size of a avrege vipers venom glands?

BGF: Proportional to head size, vipers typically have the largest venom glands out there. Then if you take the actual physical size, they can be absolutely massive. The glands from a big eastern diamondback or a gaboon viper make a nice 'thunk' when dropped into a dissecting tray. As for what is an average viper, I suppose that is a bit of a case of 'African swallow vs European Swallow'. The Asian green tree viper types would have glands the size of a medium sized finger nail, a rattlesnakes would be much larger as would animals such as Bothrops species

JayP: what are your opinions on private keepers owning venomous snakes do you think there should be more bans or more permits ? im in pa and they are banning copperheads all locals cause they dont know the difference between them.

BGF: I think that it is entirely appropriate of private keepers to keep responsibility. Prohibition just makes a more dangerous situation. Certainly a reasonable permit system is the optimal since regulation is better than prohibition. Having different classes (restricted vs open) is great because if some starts with a big taipan it will be a short-lived passion. As for councils banning all because they can't tell them apart, that should be actually quite legally challengable since it is due to laziness not lack fo available identification keys.

B_Dragon: What are your fealing on breeders morphing the animals that they breed?

BGF: Two views that start with the same premise: the animals are ecologically dead. They are absolutely irrelevant to the environment. That is why CITES was never written to interfere with the captive animals. That is beaurocracy that has grown like a cancer and are actually against the letter and intent of the regulations. Just as it was never supposed to apply to hothouse orchids. So if someone breeds it to be purple and curly scaled good on him. However, while the animal may be aesthetically unusual and perhaps even quite stunning, is absolutely useless for research purposes. Strict locality control must be implemented relative to the wild populations. If there is lots of movement in the wild types, then snakes don't have to be from the same table top or stretch of road. Howeve if they are sedentary animals or from unique islands then absolute locality control must be implemented. Which means staying on top of the blood line records. Then those animals are of benefit to research.

BGF: But they might be drab brown which of course does not appeal to the non-specialist enthusiast. Who are quite happy doing their own thing. So its horses for courses.

RiseAbove: What do you think is "the most venomous snake", in terms of damage done to humans. Like, if you got the same amount of venom from each snake, not how much venom they can inject into you from one bite.

BGF: I think the complete wild situation must be viewed, anything else is artificial. So including the venom yield and tendency to multiple strike, then I think its a case of looking at each geography separate. A less toxic snake that knocks off fingers, would have a massive impact. Like the agriculture workers. They cop a real battering from aboreal pit vipers. Or Malayan pit vipers thick through the palm oil plantations. Or tiger snakes in Melbourne. Not the animal you want on the kindergarten footpath. They will crack the little brats. So going by continent:

Australia - I'd say eastern brown snake, particularly in the semi-rural areas where there are lots of rodents. The browns can get thick. That is part of the hypothesis as to them being in New Guinea. Adam Skinner in South Australia did some very high quality genetic analyses on this area. Papua New Guinea - definately the local flavour of Oxyuranus scutellatus. Gorgeous snakes. SE Asia - Malayan pit and local cobra type. India - Russells viper and spectacled cobras, Arabia - saw scaled and perhaps Cerastes. Africa- Saw scaled and puff adders have staggering impacts

Central America - Bothrops and kin

South America - rattlesnakes start coming back in but Bothrops still the real hell.

PHFlame: Do you think that snakes can smell our fear in our breathing or other secretions? and would that make it more dangerous to be around venomous snakes if you are scared? Or is their brain too unevolved to care?

BGF: I don't think that level of processing will come in. The movements you make when you are terrified are rather different than when you have things sorted. Quicker and jerkier. Exactly the type of movement a snake is programmed to respond to. Slow, calm steady movements can be almost invisible to some snakes.

PHAlex: what is in your collection and what are you currently studying?

BGF: The collection is morphing continously. There are certainly elapids and sea snakes still around but things have certainly been focused of late more on things with scaley legs and forked tongue ;-) The major discovery with the goannas is just how much bloody work they can be! By bodyweight I'd say up to ten times as much work. They are smart enough to seem to actually take pleasure in wrecking a freshly cleaned cage. I'm also keeping venomous fish of various types, centipedes, a myriad of funnel web speces (and other weird Aussie spiders like our truly evil looking mouse spiders). The odd octopus around and some sea snakes with venomous harpoons ;-) Today.

JayP: I only have 20 or so venomous. I have talked to a few ppl about milking. I heard some colleges will buy venom for research., and I was wondering is it worth the risk to try with only a few hots. What would I need to do the milking and storing the venom?

BGF: Its a rough way to make a crust. Not much money in it unless you can get something that is currently in demand. Like colubrid snake venoms. They will be come increasingly sought after. Boomslangs, Rhabdophis, Thelatornis etc. Some venoms contain very powerful and active enzymes. That if they aren't given something to chew on they will start chewing on themselves. Like the two completely different blood acting venoms in boomslang vs taipan. Both breakdown very quickly. So instant freezing on dry ice is optimal and then kept deep frozen (-80 freezer is OK) until put on to the freeze drier. Then it is stable. Which means you'd need a freeze dryer. Which alone would set you back about 10K

It's all about quality control if you really want to have a go.

The pharmaceutical companys like Sigma provide little or no information about origin. Which is an unacceptable state of affairs now that we know venom can vary tremendously across a range.

So places like Venom Supplies in South Australia or Jim Harrison in Kentucky or LaToxan in France are providing a superiour level of service in having strict locality for their milkings. Some universities like John Perez's group in Texas have their own research collection and can provide venom about individual snakes even at a certain time of year.

That is the sort of stuff you'd need to give some deep thoughts about.

BGF: How can you compete. Without dying.

JayP: Yea i dont think i could with my 20 hots lol Thanks.

Chance: Considering their vast differences in morphology, dentition, behavior, etc., are O. scutellatus and O. microlepidotus likely to remain in the same genus, or might they ever be split back up and inlands tossed back into the (seemingly rightful?) Pseudechis genus?

BGF: Nah. They form a very tidy group. Might even be more Oxyuranus hiding away here or there ;-) What is interesting to think of however is the very close level of genetic relatedness of taipans and brown snakes. They share a very recent common ancestor. A key mutation occurred in the venom of that ancestor.

BGF: At the base of the Australian elapid tree a toxin type was developed that was a mutation of a blood protein

BGF: Called Factor X

BGF: (that is 'ten' not 'x')

BGF: This enzyme needs to form a 1:1 complex with another blood protein

BGF: Factor V

BGF: This is the rate limiting step in a tiger snake bite for exame

BGF: Tiger venom is rich in factor X

BGF: But needs to bond with the victims own blood Factor V

BGF: The common ancestor of the taipans/brown snakes recruited factor V into the venom.

BGF: Thus eliminating this step.

BGF: And in the process creating the almost perfect biological weapon.

Chance: Lucky them eh?

BGF: That is why browns/taipans are so much more toxic than other snakes.

BGF: Sort of like Aussie swimming. Gold silver bronze. Daylight. Then the USA or some growth hormone amped Dutch bird.

BGF: The brown snakes went the minimal route.

BGF: Surfer - cool I have the most toxic venom, I don't have to work a day in my life again.

BGF: Small fangs, low yield, non-dangerous prey items.

BGF: The taipans went a bit more fun.

BGF: Supercharged.

BGF: US military approach.

BGF: Long fangs, big venom yields, long distance striking multiple times.

Chance: hah, nice analogy. I'll have to remember that.

BGF: Very energetically costly so that is why they are restricted to the baking heat of the channel country or coastal north or across into New Guinea.

BGF: While the brown snakes are most wide spread.

BGF: So browns and taipans are very appropriately split into different genera but the taipans definately form a single genus

Chance: Excellent, thanks for clearing it up.

loconorc: Whats the deal with the duvernoys gland? And are monitors REALLY venomous? Sorry, Im a newbie with hots

BGF: Duvernoys gland is merely a catch all term for the various variations in venom glands in 'colubrids'. Indeed the very concept of 'colubrid' snake is wrong as some are genetically much closer to cobras than corn snakes. Psammophiidae snakes for example look like protoelapids. The glands are as variable. Some tiny little relics, others massive things with huge venom compartments. Much more variable than the largely homogeonous glands within elapids or in vipers. Only a couple freaks in each that really stand out. The rear fanged snakes are all over the shot.

loconorc: What about hognoses? And do monitor bites need to worry me? The venom, not damage

BGF: As for monitors, yes Suzie monitors have venom ;-) However, I cannot stress enough that it is not medically significant unless you are a small prey item. In which case its working in concert with very long wide double serrated teeth.

loconorc: What about the big honkers like perenties, crocs, waters, etc?

BGF: So a toxin type that promotes venom is a handy thing to have while you are slicing around. Makes a bad situation worse. Always handy.

BGF: While they are not going to be able to kill you with the venom, that doesn't mean that there aren't occasionally observable symptoms (depending on size of goanna and how good of a chew it got in). We've found the little ones (baritji, kingorum, scalaris etc) really sting. And sting. And sting. Goanna bites also typically bleed longer than a cut to that level normally would. For longer too. I had one lace monitor bite go 45 minutes and a panoptes bite go almost 2 hours of bleeding.

loconorc: Wow, what about ackies? lol just kidding

BGF: I have had four people independently contact me about savanah bites. In each case they had very painful muscles. For a few days

loconorc: Thanks for clearing that up, I was confused on that. I was scared to get an ackie for awhile :p

BGF: Interesting.

loconorc: sav bites?

BGF: Ackies are perfectly save and all goannas should be for legal purposes considered as non-venomous.

loconorc: :-)

daniel1983: Although you may have touched on this slightly in the previous question. If you are keeping goannas for research, what are the issues that you currently studying? And since you have interest in monitor lizards are you sticking around for the next chat :)

BGF: A gila merely has the largest venom system and most derived.

BGF: GA

loconorc: Ok, I think I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up :-)

BGF: We're currently just having a nice long trawl through the different species. A total fishing expedition. No hypothesis. Just a lot of bloody big lizards ;-) And we're just seeing what is showing up and what we can relate to what. Can't say too much more until the papers hit public consciousness. Whenever that may be. The scientific publishing path can be long and tortuous some times.

PHFaust: On behalf of Kingsnake.com, Jeff B, and myself, I want to take a moment to thank Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry for being part of our chat week. Dr. Fry, thanks for taking the time out to chat with us on venomous reptiles.