Chat Week on Kingsnake.com
Wednesday, December 11, 2002
Richard Hoyer
Rubber Boas

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AskRFHoyer: Welcome all to Kingsnake.com's 4th night of our 4th Annual Chat Week

AskRFHoyer: Tonight's Guest is Mr. Richard F. Hoyer..foremost authority on Rubber Boas

AskRFHoyer: Welcome Richard

RFHoyer: Welcome Bill next

AskRFHoyer: (folks prv mess your questions to me)

AskRFHoyer: Mr. Hoyer..I understand you can id an individual rubber boa by it's head scales..could you advise?

RFHoyer: C, bottae are extremely variable with respect to scalation features. Thus, just like fingerprints in humans, these snakes can be identified one from the other by their unique head scalation in combination with body scalation if needed

RFHoyer: next

AskRFHoyer: i have had rubber boas in the past but always had a problem with getting them to eat, are there any tricks that really work for them?

RFHoyer: This species is somewhat difficult in comparison to other species Patience is needed and for specimens that do not feed readily, they should be kept and temperatures in the low 780s and below. email me at charinabottae@earthlinknet for more details next

AskRFHoyer: what type of enviornmental requirements do rubber boas require?

RFHoyer: Keep cooler than other species. They do well from the mid 50's to low 70's. Gravid females need warmer temps. A number of hides are desired with some being dry and toher damp or with hig humidity. They live undeground for the most part so one should dupliate what occurs in the wild. next

AskRFHoyer: Why did you choose rubber boas as your specialty?

RFHoyer: In the late 50's and early 60's, I was into a number ofspecies but with helping raise a growing family, I decided I should concentrate on just one species. In 1962 I finally had success in maintaining to Rubber Boas which got me started.

RFHoyer: next

AskRFHoyer: I understand the state of Oregon nearly placed the rubber boa on it's state endangered list...why didn't they?

RFHoyer: I am not clear on all of the details. When I went to college at Ore St. U. the herpetolist considered as rare to scarce and was about to recommend thata it be placed on some type of list in the early 1970s when at the same time, I had leared to find this species with considerable success so professional herpetolgist did not include thespecies on his recommended list to our state's wildlife agency

RFHoyer: next

AskRFHoyer: how difficult is it to obtain rubber boas

RFHoyer: From my experience, they are one of the most numerically abundant species in suitable habitat throughout their range but one needs to learn when, where and under what conditions to find them and even then they can be difficult to find. Sounds like a contradition but it would take too long to explain. next

AskRFHoyer: Mr. Hoyer I heard you have "rubber boa sites" you regulary visit in Oregon..could you explain?

RFHoyer: In the late 1960's and early 1970's, as I learned to find this species with increased success, it became clear that I could not maintain so many snakes. In 1970 I began releasing specimens where found a good number of locations and have been doing that ever since. next

AskRFHoyer: I have 2 adult rubber boas from washington,they are the armygreen/brown color.Is it possible to produce a golden/light tan cross using a male from another area?How would you do it?

RFHoyer: The species not only if variable with respect to scalation but as to coloration. The lighter forms are found in southern Calif. and east of the Sierras but there is still some considerable variation in the Northwest. Can't help you with producing any desired color phase. next

AskRFHoyer: about how many boas do you monitor at your sites altogether?

RFHoyer: Don't have any set number as it changes from year to year depending on the number of sites I visit and the frequency with which I visit. From the 1960's to the present , I have probably tagged between 2000 - 3000 boas and probably have between 10,000 and 20,000 or more recapture events. Never have bother to add up this type of info. next

AskRFHoyer: Do you have a method, or techinque that you use to sex rubber boas' while collecting?

RFHoyer: Males have visible spurs and female usually do not. See my son's Rubber Boa Web page to see the difference. next

RFHoyer: once you know what to look for, sexing is very easy next

AskRFHoyer: Might have missed it but how many babies are in a normal clutch. How long is there gestation period? Do they exhibit a post ovulation shed and is there a approx. number of days after that shed until the birth of the babies?

RFHoyer: The normal clutch is 2-9 with ova usually being passed with 2 young. Once in a while 1 young will be produced and in every case at least one or more ova are passed as well. I had a boa produce 9 stunted boas but I consider this to be abnormal. next

AskRFHoyer: is it true rubber boas are long lived in the wild

RFHoyer: I have a number of boas that I have been recaptured 10 years or more after initial capture. I had two females at one site that were recaptured in 20 consequtive years. next

AskRFHoyer: are rubber boas as hardy as columbian boa constrictors?

RFHoyer: have not idea as I have no experience with exotics. I maintain few C. bottae but I do have one in my possession that was an old 27 1/2 inch (or thereabouts) female when first captured in 1971 next

AskRFHoyer: if not too braod a question to ask..how has your work w/the Southern Rubber Boa in California going?

RFHoyer: Great! I completed a 5 year field study of the S. Rubber Boa in the San Benardino mts as of 1997 with two papers being published on that study in late 2000. I have completed a similar study on the boas in the Tehachapi Mts. and that data is just sitting in my files until I get around to organizing the data, etc. There is an additional study I am pursuing on the the two size morphs of the species

RFHoyer: next

AskRFHoyer: Do you think the Souther Rubber Boa should remain on that State's endangered list?

RFHoyer: No and it should not have been listed in 1971 as 'RARE" as there was only one piece of factual information (low number of localtiy sightings) and the rest of the input use had to be anecdotal. The data produced during the 1993-1997 study plus an unpublished report to the USFS by Gary Keasler indicate the SRB to probably the most numerous species from 5800 ft and above. next

AskRFHoyer: How do you mark them to tell its a recapture?

RFHoyer: As mentioned earlier, the scalation of the species is such that no two individuals are the same thus like human fingerprints, by recording their head and body scalation, they can be individually identified. I can do the same with the Sharp-taield Snake and Gopher snake but those species are not as variable as C. bottae. next

AskRFHoyer: what is your website Sir?

RFHoyer: I have no web site by my son Ryan has a Rubber Boa Web Page with far more information that I can give here. If anyone wishes more input, they can email me at charinabottae@earthlink.net next

AskRFHoyer: will you be publishing more info about rubber boas

RFHoyer: This has been a hobby for all these years. The final process in scientific endeavors is to communicate results. I am not a writer and that last process is a pain to say the least. I am presently working on a manuscript about the two different size morphs that occur in the species. This is a long process. next

AskRFHoyer: what isthe largest rubber boa you have encountered in the field?

RFHoyer: About 31 inches. I have seen only about 3-5 specimen that length in the wild. All females next

RFHoyer: That is three to five next

AskRFHoyer: The website it www.kingsnake.com/rubberboa

AskRFHoyer: why are rubber boas good captives? Are they readily available captive bred?

RFHoyer: The species is reasonably easy to maintain once you get them to accept food . They can and should be maintained at temperatured lower than other species and thus not extra heat is really required. They never bite in self defense--to my knowlege at least, But I do not think they are the species of choice for everyone. next

AskRFHoyer: what new projects are you working on

RFHoyer: They are very easlily bred in captivity. One project leads to others in research. The durrent thrust has been with taxonomic issues. The S. Rubber Boa was found to be dwarf form of the species. When I began looking elsewhere in S. Calif., this dwarf from was found to exist elsewhere besides the San Bernardino and San Jacinto mts. so the SRB is not unique that regard. Thus, I have been

RFHoyer: to determine the exact range ofthe dwarf form and where it intergrades with the larger morph. next

AskRFHoyer: Being as there are many designer morphs of animals that are already actractivly colored . Do you think that rubber boas will ever have this happen and also do you think that it will hep this animla gain popularity as it is rather plainly colored

RFHoyer: I have discovered striking mutations in the species. One I was able to get established for a few years and work out the genetic to show the mutation was due to a single recessive gene I called 'lilac'. That mutations occurs in Utah as some others have continued it and called is Silver I believe.

RFHoyer: Also found a specimens that was solid black ventrally up to the 3rd or 4th scale rows but it died within a week after capture. I have heard of albino C. bottae but have never seen one. next

AskRFHoyer: I was told that rubbers are free of many of the protazoans that infect other snakes.If true are there any medical research programs going on to determine why

RFHoyer: You are way beyond my level of undersanting of the species. I have no knowledge about that sort of thing but my son Ryan may. next

AskRFHoyer: I herd of an examanation of hundreds of preserved whild captured rubber boas found crickets to be the most common stomach content,is this true?

RFHoyer: I am unaware of any such study. The only study on diet from preserved specimens was produced by Javier-Rodriguez Robles formerly of U.C. Berkeley and insects were not mentioned as having been found as part of C. bottae diet. In one of our SRB papers, I cover thesubject of diet. next

AskRFHoyer: Rich..would you like to keep going a bit longer on this Chat..up to you.

RFHoyer: I am here as long as you wish next

AskRFHoyer: does the temperment vary with range or are all rubber boas so tame

RFHoyer: I have examined specimens from B.C., Wash, Oregon Idaho, one from Montana, Calif. All have behaved identically as far as being docile. The do get upset and void on you or release their scent gland material but that is the extent of it. next

AskRFHoyer: concentration-wise (populat) what is the most you have seen in any one area

RFHoyer: Depends on the area you are talking about. In 1997 or 1996 I took a gentleman from Mich out locally as he had never seen a boa in the wild but was breeding thespecies. We encountered 47 that day; I may have seen more in one day but only remember that one instance. It is not uncommon to encounter 15 - 30 in a day. But I would find zero if it were not for the fact I purposely put out artifica

RFHoyer: ficial cover objects (tins and boards) in our local grassland habitat where the species is found here in western Oregon. next

AskRFHoyer: i recently made a trip to Mt. Pinos but found only a very dusty/pine needle surface are boas found in this type of envirement?

RFHoyer: The species has been known from Mt. Pinos since 1935 but only officially confirmed by Dr. Glenn Stewart in 1973. My son Ryan and I were there in late Oct. and I was there in August but zip too dry. The best time for finding these snakes is the same as all species, the spring. next

AskRFHoyer: Thanks to Rayn! I used his feeding method of placing a brained/frozen/thawed pinkie mouse under the hideout of my '02 babies cage ane one female has eaten 7 pinkies in the last 2 weeks,the other two males will not eat,should i place them in the cooler with the adults?

RFHoyer: I stopped trying to feed my captive C. bottae past mid Oct. way back in the 1970's as most refuse food at this time of year. I keep them from the high 30's high 40's whatever temp. occurs in my outdoor snake shed but a small space heater that does not allow the temperatrue to get down to freezing. next.

AskRFHoyer: Is scenting w/field pinkys to lab pinkys a big thing for rubber boas?

RFHoyer: Ask Ryan. I have never had to do that but it makes sense to get some boas started. I use to maintain a lab mouse colony but discarded it in favor or a laboratory stock of our native Deer Mouse as I could not get the SRBs to feed on lab mice. I have always gone afield and collected nestly voles, deer mice and shrew that I freeze and use for food for the boas during the active season. next

AskRFHoyer: do you see habitat destruction ie new suburbia building etc as a threat to the Southern rubber boa?

RFHoyer: Only on private land. According to a report to the USFWS in 1991 by Dr. Glenn Stewart, the SRB occurs on approx. 129 square miles in the San Benardino Mts with 81% of its distribution on US Forest Service land. Some of the latter is taken up by ski faciliies and campgrounds but with that much habitat on govt. land, I think the SRB is quite secure. next

AskRFHoyer: If I setout boards and tins..about how long do you think it would take the boas to respond to?

RFHoyer: My rule of thumb is about 4-6 months depending when you put the AC out. Put it out in the fall and there is a good chance snakes (all species) will find the AC the following spring and begen us utilize it for thermoregulations. But I have put out AC one day and found a boa and two NW gartersnake under the tin two days later. next

AskRFHoyer: and these boards tins should be setout only in grassland areas vrs forest/wooded areas?

RFHoyer: Artifical cover can be place anywhere there is suitable habitat for the target species. I have A./C in forests openings, brushy areas as well as open grassland. C. bottae occurs at lower elevations here in the northwest but at higher elevations in the Sierra Nevada Mts. but down to the coast in coastal Calif. next

AskRFHoyer: Mr. Hoyer, I heard you speak at a Oregon Herp Society meet many years ago and you said something about finding rubber boas nearly year round?

RFHoyer: I have found both C. bottae and Contia tenuis (Common Sharp-tailed Snake) every month of the year. But of course, the right conditions have to exist during the winter months. Temps of about 55 and above for a few days with some periiods of sunshine, Since 1971, I have never failed to find at least on male Rubber Boa during the month of Feb. next

AskRFHoyer: have you found many gravid female boas in the field

RFHoyer: hundreds next

AskRFHoyer: on your bio on the kingsnake site it says you dsicovered a new sharp-tail snake (if I can ask this) .have you named it?

RFHoyer: Gave a presentation of C. bottae reproduction in 1991 with the proceeding published the next year. Believe my sample of gravid females was around 300 -400 next

RFHoyer: I published an account on the discovery of the new species of Contia as of Dec. 2001. A formal discription is the next step. next

AskRFHoyer: will you be going back to california to study the southern boa

RFHoyer: One needs to have a legal document called an MOU with Calif F & G to study species listed as 'Threatened'. I am done with that species as far as the San Berndarino Mts. are concerned but would like to do the same type of study of the population in the San Jacinto Mts. I approached CFG about this 2-3 months ago but have not heard back from them. On 4/29/01, I went back to some of my sites in th

RFHoyer: the San Bernardino mts. with Brain Hinds and his son and while looking for mt kingsnakes, we enountered 19 SRB of which 7 were recaptures from my93 - 97 study. That sort of represented a one day followup but it gave me some good information on growth. next.

AskRFHoyer: regarding both boas; are any found new the Pacific Ocean and/or about how far from?

AskRFHoyer: (near)

AskRFHoyer: the actual ocean itself

RFHoyer: Are you speaking of the Rosy Boa and Rubber Boa. I do not possess info. on the Rosy Boa. The Rubber Boas has been found very near to right on the coast from at least Bandon in southern Oregon all the way down to San Luis Obispo County, Calif. next.

AskRFHoyer: Do you have any probs with your boa sites..ie vandalism

RFHoyer: Gobs of problems. I just addressed that topic with another individual. I have had 7-9 of my sites raided with three in which it appeared the individuals must have had a vacuum cleaner as all snakes vanished. Mad of course as it disrupted my reacapture studies at those sites. All sites but three recovered rapidly from 1-3 years. The three sites that have yet to recover are on small parcels

RFHoyer: land of about 2-6 hectared that are isolated due to habitat fragmemtation. next.

AskRFHoyer: Do you breed rubber boas

RFHoyer: did so from 1969 until 1990 when I cut way back as I had accumulated enought data to report my findings on reproduction. I continue to seek gravid females in wild or captive breed such reproductive female from certain area as the data on neonate size are improtant in characterizing the two different C. bottae size morphs. next

AskRFHoyer: do rubber boas feed, do you think, on shrews or baby moles?

RFHoyer: They love them!!!! Our common species of shrew locally is Sorex vagrans (Vagrant Shrew) and we also have the Shrew Mole which is only about twice the size of shrews. C. bottae scarf up the nextlings of both species. next

AskRFHoyer: What is the most southern place you have recorded RBs?

RFHoyer: The San Bernardino Mts. are the furthest south I have observed the species. The range of the species is continuing to be expanded by new discoveries so I am not certain if the species might someday be found in isolated patches south of the San Jacinto Mts. next.

AskRFHoyer: do you find that rubber boas are found alongside rattlesnakes in the same hiding cover

RFHoyer: I have not personally found the two species together under the same cover object but it would not surprise me. I have found boas with all otherr local species here in northwestern Oregon. next

AskRFHoyer: when captive females are removed from cooling,do you feed for awhile to fatten up before introducing the males?

RFHoyer: Sometimes but it is no necessary. They continue to feed up to the time they enter gestation and them females of most populations (no all) stop feeding during gestation. If you female is not really robust, I suspect that keeping the temp. below 80 and allowing the snake to pork up would ensure more robust neonates. next

AskRFHoyer: Folks we're up on our time here..which btw has been THE single longest running chat Kingsnake.com has had! (2 hours w/one Guest)

PHGinger: Wow - we will nickname Mr. Hoyer SuperGuest!

RFHoyer: Can I go eat dinner now Bill? next

PHWyvern: lol

AskRFHoyer: Rich, on behalf of JeffB, Kingsnake.com, the PH's and their overtime, and myself..thank you so much Sir for being our Guest tonight

RFHoyer: Keep in touch Richard F. Hoyer

PHFaust: Thanks for coming rich

AskRFHoyer: I regret I could not get to all questions but we simply ran outa time