Chat Week on Kingsnake.com
Monday, December 9, 2002
Patrick Nabors
Getting Started with Dart Frogs

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AskPatrick: Welcome Patrick

AskPatrick: Patrick has been keeping lizards and dart frogs and has a very nice collection of.

AskPatrick: Patrick, about how many species of darts do you have now

PHWyvern: For those folks just coming in, this chat is being moderated. To ask Patrick a question, please doubleclick on the name AskPatric in the chat room and post your question to him there.

Patrick_Nabors: OK Next!I

AskPatrick: what's your favor dart frog

Patrick_Nabors: Probably the Bastimentos D. pumilio, they are extremely active and very interesting...Next

AskPatrick: What do you recomend as a substrate for darts?

Patrick_Nabors: Well, I have used a lot of different things, but have settled on small aquarium gravel as my favorite...next

AskPatrick: Hello Patrick. What would you say is the most difficult species of dart frog to keep and why? Thanks.

Patrick_Nabors: I guess that several of the thumbnail, or smaller species would be considered very difficult, and D. silverstonei ranks up there also for being very delicate...next

AskPatrick: whats the mortality rate on the little dart tads?

Patrick_Nabors: Very low...once they are set up, and feeding they do very well. Maybe 2 percent mortality. Next

AskPatrick: how do you feel about hybrid dart frogs in the market?

Patrick_Nabors: That is a sticky issue, but in general I feel that they are bad, since they often get into the hands of people who dont know what they are, then bred, and sold as the wrong frogs. Next

AskPatrick: How long have you been keeping dart frogs and how did you get interested in them.

Patrick_Nabors: I got my first frogs, a group of E. tricolor, in 1991. I did some reading on them, and they seemed fascinating. I am particularly interested because they can be kept in a small terrarium, such as a twenty gallon tall tank, and they look at home, and to scale, if you know what I mean...you dont have to worry about them trashing the tank. Next

AskPatrick: What is your favorite reptile book

PHWyvern: For those folks just coming in, this chat is being moderated. To ask Patrick a question, please doubleclick on the name

AskPatrick: in the chat room and post your question to him there.

Patrick_Nabors: Probably Keeping and Breeding Terrarium Animals, by E. Zimmerman. Next

AskPatrick: Is there one specie of dart that you would like to try and haven't yet

Patrick_Nabors: With over a hundred species, and many color variants on these species, there is always something out there...right now I think I would like to try my hand at D. mysteriousis, from Peru....some captive bred animals may be coming in from Europe in the next year or so. Next

AskPatrick: average clutch size for the tinctorius "Surinam CObalts"?

Patrick_Nabors: Around 8. Next

AskPatrick: is their a D.Azureus that almost without any spots?

Patrick_Nabors: D. azureus are found in a very fine spotted form, in which the spots are hard to see if you dont look close. Next

AskPatrick: Do you find that the separate variations (locality morphs) of pumilio require different needs to thrive? ...or to breed?

Patrick_Nabors: In general, no, but I havent worked with that many forms, and those I work with almost all come from the same area. Next

AskPatrick: What do you use to treat your frogs for internal parasites?

Patrick_Nabors: Powdered Panacur and Metronidizol, mixed with Rep Cal, and dusted on the food. Next

AskPatrick: for a beginner with little or no amphibian experience what would be the best species of dart frog to keep (if any)

Patrick_Nabors: Probably the D.auratus, or the D. galactonotus, or the P. terribilis, or any Phyllobates. All of these do well in groups, which is the big thing which seperates them from frogs like the D. azureus, or D. tinctorius. Next

AskPatrick: How many different types of insects do you feed to your frogs on a regular basis? ...what are they? ...and do you raise them all yourself?

Patrick_Nabors: I feed Fruit flies, the D. melanogaster, and common crickets, both of which I raise my self. Those are just about all I feed. Next

AskPatrick: Do you use any type of misting system and if you do, what type of system do you use?

Patrick_Nabors: I use the Rainmaker misting system, which I also sell...I think they are a great tool for someone with a lot of frogs, but you dont need one if you are just getting started, just a spray bottle! Next

AskPatrick: what other frogs do you keep beside dart frogs?

Patrick_Nabors: I am keeping a few treefrogs, Hyla Ebracta, Redeyes, P. hypochondrialis, some waxies, ....I am also working on some Solomon Island Leaf frogs, they are very cool! I hope to be offering them next year. Next

AskPatrick: I see from your pumilio set-up that there is no visual division between the enclosures. Does a calling male not disrupt the frogs in the neighboring enclosure or add to their excitement?

Patrick_Nabors: The males are very ambitious, and are spurred on by calling frogs in the neighboring tanks, but I dont think they disrupt each other, more spur each other on. next

AskPatrick: > Patrick, is the size of prey of special importance in dart frogs? Specifically, is smaller prey better for any reason?

PHWyvern: For those folks just coming in, this chat is being moderated. To ask Patrick a question, please doubleclick on the name

AskPatrick: in the chat room and post your question to him there.

Patrick_Nabors: Well, darts cant eat a very large prey at all. Most dart frogs are not able to eat a cricket the size of a grain of rice....so small prey is vital, for your frogs will starve to death in a tank full of food just a little too big for them. I see this in pet stores sometimes, crickets almost as big as the frogs! NExt

AskPatrick: > Do you have any acvice for acclimating WC frogs?

Patrick_Nabors: I keep mine in various size plastic boxes...such as blanket boxes for frogs like auratus or tinctorius...in very low densities, singly if possible. Male tincs can be very hard to get settled in, and often seem to require food like termites. Next

AskPatrick: raising your own feeder insects, do you have any particular diet that you use so they will be a healthy food item for your frogs?

Patrick_Nabors: No, I would say I have pretty much ignored all the gut load advice out there...I go for good quality cricket chow, and dust with good quality supplements. Next

AskPatrick: What do you know about the new supplements that have recently been imported from Germany and are reportedly designed for dart frogs?

Patrick_Nabors: Just about that...I have used them, they might be just the thing if you have a pair of frogs which is always laying infertile eggs if you have exhausted all other options...but you certainly dont need them to sucessfully raise the frogs Next

AskPatrick: I have heard that darts loose all their toxicity due to lack of ant feeding, is this true?

Patrick_Nabors: All captive bred dart frogs are completely non toxic. The reason is not so much lack of ant feeding, as it is lack of something in the diet of the dart frogs preys....which is made up of a lot of ants in the wild....next

AskPatrick: do you plan on breeding phyllomedusa sauvagei?

Patrick_Nabors: I hope to, they are great frogs....but in general all those nocturnal frogs are kind of boring compared to diurnal dart frogs. Next

AskPatrick: Do you have another job besides frogs?

Patrick_Nabors: No, I have been doing frogs and lizards for a living for several years. Next

AskPatrick: Do you use compact flourescent bulbs in your enclosures? If so have you noticed any increases in your plant and moss growth or health?

Patrick_Nabors: I started using compact flourescents about two years ago, and yes, they are the best in my opinion, they make my bromeliads look better than when I got them, and moss grows and spreads in their light, especially the 96 watt bulbs. Next

AskPatrick: what is a good age for D.Azureus to start to breed

Patrick_Nabors: As young as nine or ten months, more typically twelve to fourteen...they might be old enough at ten months, but the climatic conditions might not be right...with dart frogs, you get everything right, a pair in the tank, well fed, high humidity, then wait for them to decide to start, or the weather or season to change...next

AskPatrick: You are successful with so many different frogs, from Hylids to Dendrobates, can you tell us of the variety of differing needs between the various species?

Patrick_Nabors: Most dart frogs need about the same things, minor variations in humidity, or temperature...but the hylids I am newer to.....they seem to require a lot more ventilation and lower humidity....next

AskPatrick: Are there any places out the to get some more phyllomedusa sauvagei? I have a few ,but want more

Patrick_Nabors: Watch the Amphibian classifieds on Kingsnake....next

AskPatrick: I cannot find a local vet to obtain panacur. Any suggestions on where I could get it?

Patrick_Nabors: Well, not really sure, you could try some of the vets which offer online consulting. contact me privately , I can steer you to my vet. Next

AskPatrick: How toxic are the various species of dart frogs in terms of human skin contact

Patrick_Nabors: If you stick to captive bred dart frogs they are completely non toxic. Next

AskPatrick: what do you know about obtaining bullseye hists, lehmanni, and other sought after darts is it useless to look or just expensive to buy?

Patrick_Nabors: Their are occasionally some smuggled animals available, sometimes they come in from Europe with papers, but they are still smuggled, and more often they come in directly to the US from Columbia, as smuggled animals. I dont think you should obtain them unless you have the knowledge to sucessfully breed them, and they are very expensive, three to five hundred a frog, with a high male sex ratio, and

Patrick_Nabors: a farirly high mortality. Next

AskPatrick: Do you forsee a day when large amounts of CB Pumilio and other egg feeders will be avaliable? Maybe through a network of breeders working torward this goal.

Patrick_Nabors: No...since one pair of eggfeeders might,at maximum produce twenty babies a year....I have pairs of auratus that produce that in a month or less. Next

AskPatrick: heard anything about mantellas coming?

Patrick_Nabors: I am sorry to say I dont really pay a lot of attention to mantellas. next

AskPatrick: Specifically what type of compact bulbs and fixtures do you use?

Patrick_Nabors: I buy my bulbs and kits from a company called aquarium home supply, at www.ahsupply.com. I use the 6500k bulbs Next

PHWyvern: For those folks just coming in, this chat is being moderated. To ask Patrick a question, please doubleclick on the name

AskPatrick: in the chat room and post your question to him there.

AskPatrick: i saw some orange P.Terribilis,they seen more yellow then orange.why this happen?

Patrick_Nabors: Well names like Orange terribilis and Giant Orange get stuck on a frog, and the individual frog may be a variant of this color...next

AskPatrick: Whats the easiest species to keep?

Patrick_Nabors: Any of several species...look back a ways I went over some of them.next

AskPatrick: what lighting do you use for your waxy monkey TF? I use 60 watt zoo med day bulbs

Patrick_Nabors: I use incandescent bulbs, I tend to stay away from expensive "reptile" bulbs...other than supplements I stay away from "reptile" supplies, you pay too much for things you can find other places...next

AskPatrick: > Patrick, you have had better success than anyone I know with pumilio what the heck is your secret?

Patrick_Nabors: I have a lot of pumilio....I gave a talk this summer at International Herp symposium,and plan to post the paper, and the slide show on my website, by the end of the year...but like I say a lot of it is that I put a lot of money and time into getting a lot of pumilio next

AskPatrick: What do you think about the debate of using film canisters vs. Bromeliads for pumilio?

Patrick_Nabors: I havent used film cans for pumilio, but I really like the look of bromeliads in the tank. next

AskPatrick: how often you dust your food insects with vitamin?

Patrick_Nabors: I use vitamins and calcium at each feeding. next

AskPatrick: Why do you think that egg feeders have such a reputation for being hard to keep? It has been my experience that once you acclimate them they are very hardy and even willing to breed.

Patrick_Nabors: I am not sure, I agree, they are very hardy frogs, much more so than tincs or especially some thumbnails...but I think a lot of that is based on all the crappy imports.....the folks in Nicaragua must have a formula for beating the hell out of a pumilio before sending it to the US...so many die after they come in. Next

AskPatrick: can do ask how to keep a dart frogs tank moist but free of mites

AskPatrick: cuz i keep on getting mites once i keep a tank warm and moist

Patrick_Nabors: What kind of mites? I have leaf litter mites, but dont know of any mite that attacks dart frogs. Next

AskPatrick: Do you vary the length of daylight from season to season for you darts?

Patrick_Nabors: No next

AskPatrick: I have been discussing this quesation with a few people and haven't come to a clear answer...Do you think manzanita should be used with waxys? Also sandblasted or regular? thank you

Patrick_Nabors: Dont know much about waxies. next

AskPatrick: What morphs of pumilio are you keeping? Any not shown on your web site?

Patrick_Nabors: They are all pictured on the site....there are about five I think. Red, yellow bastis, red bastis, green, blue, and orange and greens next

AskPatrick: How long do you keep the lights on your darts? (per day)

Patrick_Nabors: 12 to fourteen hours...next

AskPatrick: is there one specie you would rather not keep..probs etc

Patrick_Nabors: So far I have stayed away from D. silverstonei, they seem extremely touchy, plus they seem to require cool temps...of course I say that, but I heard about a guy breeding them who was keeping them pretty warm...next

AskPatrick: What species of feeder insects do you feed your darts?Thanks

Patrick_Nabors: Fruit flies and crickets about do it. Next

AskPatrick: do you know the nutrient value on fruitfly?

Patrick_Nabors: no. next

AskPatrick: What frog calls do you personally respond to?

Patrick_Nabors: Well.....my favorite is the pumilio call, but otherwise I am not sure....next

AskPatrick: i have read that a when u keep a dart frogs tank like it should, bacterial growth is more common and can harm darts, and that there is this one substrate thatll prevent the bacterial growth, will this substrate work? Its from black jungle

Patrick_Nabors: I am unfamiliar with this, but have not had any bacterial growth problems...I use small aquarium gravel, and do not care for the "organic" substrates, it is tooeasy for them to go sour on you, then you have to tear downt he whole terrarium. next

AskPatrick: Hey Patrick this is Blake Petty on your Pumilio waiting list, well anyways last time i talked to you, you said i had 8 more people in front of me and your were going to send another shipment out, i was just wondering if you knew how many people were in front of me now?

Patrick_Nabors: Contact me privately forr this....Thanks. next

AskPatrick: What do you keep your D/N tenps in your frog room?

Patrick_Nabors: I always struggle to keep the day time temps cool....all those lights warm it up...but it runs around eighty. At night it drops to around 70. Next

AskPatrick: Can you over feed darts?

Patrick_Nabors: Yes, you can over feed adult dart frogs,it is a lot harder to over feed juveniles though...just dont over feed and stress them out with a bunch of extra food walking around on htem. next

AskPatrick: Are you familiar with "tropical mosses" that everyone seems to be pushing these days? I use moss I find in the creek beds and it grows just fine.(I live in the north east US)

Patrick_Nabors: Yes, I agree... moss is a tricky plant, but in some cases our native mosses do just fine in tanks..be carefull not to strip it from sensitive habitat though! next

AskPatrick: i heard that u can sex a dart frog by probeing it? How is probeing done?

Patrick_Nabors: Is that a joke? Well any way, no, probing is not recommended for live dart frogs! Next

AskPatrick: Folks we're up on the hour; on behalf of JeffB, Kingsnakesnake.com and all of us, thank you Patrick

Patrick_Nabors: Thanks for having me!

AskPatrick: this has been a most informative chat

jeffb: Thank yopu for coming Patrick

PHWyvern: It's been a pleasure chatting with you Patrick

Patrick_Nabors: I enjoyed it!

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